Rebreather Safety Improvement: Progressively opening Oxygen Cylinder Valve Seat

[bottle maker]

Iain were you involved in the Edinburgh gold salvage? Listened to a talk about it,. I hope you weren't tasked with cleaning the chambers prior to the dive.

Graham

[iain/hsm]

Iain were you involved in the Edinburgh gold salvage? Listened to a talk about it,. I hope you weren't tasked with cleaning the chambers prior to the dive.

Graham

No. I dont know anything about it I thought Edinburgh was a city. No comment.
But I will say this that whatever you have been told is all you will be told.

My first salvage dive was on one of CalMacs old ferries the MV Lock Arkaig and to this day I cannot recall how the bell, the sternlight starboard lights
and half her contents were washed away while we patched the hull and raised it. I do however recall certain techniques how to surface with four pulls two bells in navy dress suface supplied and other "Arts of craft"

One of which being not to comment on salvage in a public forum.

And to declare my afinty to King George and the right of the diver to remove from a vessel any such hinderence that he should declare
a hazzard to his work.

[bottle maker]

No. I dont know anything about it I thought Edinburgh was a city. No comment.
But I will say this that whatever you have been told is all you will be told.

My first salvage dive was on one of CalMacs old ferries the MV Lock Arkaig and to this day I cannot recall how the bell, the sternlight starboard lights
and half her contents were washed away while we patched the hull and raised it. I do however recall certain techniques how to surface with four pulls two bells in navy dress suface supplied and other "Arts of craft"

One of which being not to comment on salvage in a public forum.

And to declare my afinty to King George and the right of the diver to remove from a vessel any such hinderence that he should declare
a hazzard to his work.

Nudge nudge wink wink .

Bell what bell.

The talk I heard was by the diving supervisor. I can remember his name.

[iain/hsm]

Nudge nudge wink wink .

Bell what bell.

The talk I heard was by the diving supervisor. I can remember his name.

You can tie in the motley crew from the Edinburgh gold salvage through 2W Infabco, SSI Keith Jessop to the SLS mentioned above
And then through the SLS eventually to Divex and then to Tecnip over to Open Safety and back to the closed circuit bell bailout rebreather.
To do it properly you need to introduce a number of as yet un published players into the picture and the chances of that happening are slim to zero.

Another line is to trace SSI and 2W sat divers with a company called Oceaneering and a "salvage" saturation dive on the RMS Carpathia
done a few months after the Edinburgh salvage as not many know about it as only pots and pans were listed on the manifest LOL

And from the RMS Carpathia dives you can get back to the Apocolypse rebreather and then we are nicly back on track and on topic.
And I have nicely calmed the waters. All in your own best interest you understand.

[simon mitchell]

Adds to the cost, slows deliveries down but results in a very low and by that I believe it to be zero, instance of faulty rebreather builds or components received by OSELs customers to date.

From a customer who previously actually defended you a lot in the early YD days but then had an epiphany:

I had a leaking 02 valve that apparently 'I' allegedly tried to prize apart with a screwdriver (why???)...it later transpired that it had been previously used by an outside body for testing....strike one to Ian....grovelling apology and box of bog rolls....it took a lot of ranting though...

A case lid that despite their protestations and advice on how to attatch a lid, I was obviously doing it wrong, kept flying off evertime I hit the water...oh yeah, apparently after replacing it, then the new one not fitting, and two returns to the factory was fixed at great expense and man hours by them by shoving a washer under the tab.....Mmmmmm...clever. Strike 2 to Ian.

Oh yeah, and then there was the integral 02 bottle that was out of visual test three months after I bought it, and despite the good doktors reasurance that idest etc didnt know the rules ended up not bieng able to be tested in the uk due to the bizzarre thread size, but that wasnt osels fault, it was the regulations........that mission only took about ten emails, three phone calls and a million words....strike 3 to Ian.

Ah yes, then there was the 02 valve shutdown lever that I was promised that never materialised....but we all all know about that one......

Then the albov purge button that cracked and fecked off across the carpark in Malta effectivly ending the diving holiday.....apparently it was damaged in transit, obviously my fault....I think not, its a shit design basically.

Then the heartskipping moment I saw the bubbles from my dive buddies bailout as he tried to battle with the stuck open o2 manual add at 60mtrs......thank cluck I was on the boat at the time...the dive of course having been lost!! Why an instant recall on both the units they have sold was not immediate is beyond me....but what the hell eh?.....its a managable fault, and what harm is a bit of excess 02 at depth eh??

Then of course there is the never materialising refund for monies I apparently paid for some thing called 'risk' according to the good doktor....I got so pissed off listening to his nonsensical drivelling I actually put the phone down on him!!
I was pretty clear that I had ordered a product that was fully certified and available for sale....but then of course the fact that I got it so cheaply should make up for that....the only little detail that seems to escape them is that I never feckin got it at all....bless eh?....the good doktors bizzarre and twisted logic is a peach to listen to!!!......strike 1 to OSEL.

And another customer on rebreatherworld:

I had a problem where the o-ring sealing the O2 injector failed on a dive, meaning that I had to feather the O2 for the rest of the dive. This happened right at the end of my bottom time and was more of an inconvenience than anything. It turned out the o-ring was shredded, not just nicked or deformed, which surprised me a little, anyway I changed it and kept diving.

On the next dive, the O2 started free-flowing shortly after I arrived at the max depth, around 65m! This was slightly more of an inconvenience but still easy enough to solve by feathering the cylinder off and on.

The free flow did not go away but I put up with it for a couple of dives feathering the oxygen (flame all you like, the problem was manageable). I dived like that for two more dives and then noticed on the third the free flow was gone. Happy days!

The Apoc performed well for the rest of the trip and I sent the injector away when I got home to Australia at the end of August. It's on it's way back now. The pictures of the injector I have seen show blackening, allegedly from an O2 fire from "dirty" oxygen, a problem that no-one else of the boat was afflicted with, but even if they were, it did not stop them diving and, hey, I was in Thailand, it's not like I get to choose where to get the oxygen from. There was also apparently corrosion from saltwater incursion. Again, my fault apparently and nothing to do with the shredded o-ring.

And another:

I had a couple of issues with the BOV including the purge button and a freeflowing issue, but the O2 injector has been fine so far. I go t a replacement for the original wing inflator, which leaked as well, so I put a generic Beaver inflator on it. I have been toying with the idea of selling it, as I don't need it, and have to thin down my toys, but I do actually like it, so not 100% decided there.

Brad, it seems my record of your company's quality control issues is more complete than yours. I would have thought an accurate record of these issues would be a pre-requisite for all those certifications you frequently boast about.

Simon M

[iain/hsm]

And another customer on rebreatherworld:

Simon M

You must have some special skills here Simon. Have you thought about the Adult Librarian Services. Good job and you can spend all
day digging up posts made 10 years ago from folk who are no longer with us ............figuratively speaking.

Now it takes a special skill to reference a post on rebreather world these days
When I try I dont get much at all.

http://www.rebreatherworld.com/forums.php

[gobfish1]

You must have some special skills here Simon. Have you thought about the Adult Librarian Services. Good job and you can spend all
day digging up posts made 10 years ago from folk who are no longer with us ............figuratively speaking.

Now it takes a special skill to reference a post on rebreather world these days
When I try I dont get much at all.

http://www.rebreatherworld.com/forums.php

Yes I seem to have broken burger world with my last link to the infamous thread with the ginger twat showing how smart he thinks he is .

I'm sure some of us have a copys of the relevant posts .

Back in the day the ginger twat had fast fingers
And would often try to change his original post .
Once he had got he's foot out of his mouth .

He's been trying clean his web history for some years now.

He should really just stick with face f#ck

[iain/hsm]

Yes I seem to have broken burger world with my last link to the infamous thread
I'm sure some of us have a copys of the relevant posts .

And here was me thinking it was Peter Sotis himself that did it for that three dive stunt dive/ training dive / anchor recovery that killed that shark film fella.
As well as selling military listed items to Libya when told not to, Oh and being accused by his business partner of selling uncertified rebreather cylinders from China.

He's been trying clean his web history for some years now.
He should really just stick with face xxxx.

I dont have that problem I just make a reply to a Simon Mitchell post and he gets the post and my reply cleaned up for me as though it never happened.
Especially on Scubaboard. I now dont even have to ask it's that good a librarian service. Like having my own secretary........only prettier.

[gobfish1]

Sotis timing was v good then . As it went down the day after I posted the link. And he's been up shit creak for a long time now.
Must be just a coincidence.
And my tin hat is playing me up .

You take care . M8

Ps
Dont worry about on Scubaboard it's full of them yanks you would be better of head butting a wall than entering in to a debate with them .
Eney how come Easter it will be pretty quiet over the pond and on scubaland

[simon mitchell]

Hi Iain,

I have no idea what kompromat OSEL have on you, but it must be spectacular given your enthusiasm for attaching your star to their sputtering rocket. In this latest example you obliquely defend Brad Horn's claim that OSEL have never had any quality assurance problems with products released to their customers, when (as you can see) there are many people on this thread who know that to be unequivocally false. Not to mention problems with the promised products that were never released to customers, like the iCCR and the bailout rebreather you were touting in an earlier post.

Regarding obtaining material from RBW, given Brad's demonstrated penchant for revising history, I have had the prescience to keep copies of many relevant posts related to debates I have been involved in with OSEL. They come in handy, in cases like this.

I dont have that problem I just make a reply to a Simon Mitchell post and he gets the post and my reply cleaned up for me as though it never happened. Especially on Scubaboard. I now dont even have to ask it's that good a librarian service. Like having my own secretary........only prettier.

Yes, its a relief that there are a tiny number of places where deception and lies remain poorly tolerated. But don't worry; there are still plenty of places on the internet where you can puff your chest out and say anything you like.

Finally, its fairly rich for you to complain about things being more than 10 years old, when virtually all the corporate 'knowledge' you spruik on these forums is way older than that.

Simon M

[Brad_Horn]

How are TecnipFMC (The company has changed a bit its been so long) and Statoil doing with your "Hugely over complicated Bail out system" oh yeah.........

Yes there were some interesting choices made there weren’t there… I guess you could call a ship over-complicated when it carries the bailout gas http://www.energy-oil-gas.com/2012/02/29/unique-system/
Even more expensive when they built a ship around utilising said fully certified at that time primary rebreather life support system https://www.evolen.org/_upload/resso...arctic_jah.pdf

Especially considering OSEL owned and continue to own all the IP and tooling for the complete rebreather system inclusive of the SparkADA code! Supplied COTS with valid PO: albeit with solid-state O2 sensors now, OSELs progressive Oxygen valve and 350m CE/NORSOK certification if required.

End tidal CO2 monitoring... ffs... here we go again.

Indeed https://www.facebook.com/OpenSafetyE...3144424405002/ would be great to see other rebreather manufacturers developing their own.
Especially with how inaccurate tempstiks and inhale CO2 monitoring are; as evidenced by the dearth of their testing.

I have never seen an Apoc being dived.

No worries. You will. So nice diving such a light unit with its market lowest WOB. Proven to be safe enough to be shipped direct to customers doors fully diveable out of the box, just add gas and get trained.

I do remember that the prototype I saw at the show was going to a fully controlled unit. This has never materialised.

Kinda correct. That was likely one of this batch of units https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=129100310476080

Per that demo Alex makes it quite clear that the fully controlled unit was for military use only. That specific military eCCR he refers to is this one https://www.facebook.com/OpenSafetyE...type=3&theater which is very nice to dive.
The sports units for recreational use OSEL offer have always been mCCR units at heart, even if O2 only. The iCCR is at its core an mCCR with intervention electronics overlaid.

Until a working fully controlled CCR capable of diving 100 meters plus is available for anybody with £10,000 to spend, then you and Alex have minimal credibility.

Amusing. Plenty of credibility amongst the right players with OSELs Commercial and Military lines that are designed to be safely dived to 350m.
On the Recreational side no one is forcing anyone to dive an OSEL unit. But for those that do their research and compare the testing and systems engineering behind OSELs units compared to any competition the contrast is vast http://www.deeplife.co.uk/or_fmeca.php and http://www.deeplife.co.uk/or_dv.php

OSEL even sell their blank military eCCR head to anyone whom wants one to add to an Apoc. With at least a couple in active use as DIY eCCRs using off the self controllers. Will full ongoing support for the CCR provided by OSEL up to the 'e' bit, at that point you're on your own.

I had a problem where the o-ring sealing the O2 injector failed on a dive, meaning that I had to feather the O2 for the rest of the dive. This happened right at the end of my bottom time and was more of an inconvenience than anything. It turned out the o-ring was shredded, not just nicked or deformed, which surprised me a little, anyway I changed it and kept diving.
On the next dive, the O2 started free-flowing shortly after I arrived at the max depth, around 65m! This was slightly more of an inconvenience but still easy enough to solve by feathering the cylinder off and on.
The free flow did not go away but I put up with it for a couple of dives feathering the oxygen (flame all you like, the problem was manageable). I dived like that for two more dives and then noticed on the third the free flow was gone. Happy days!
The Apoc performed well for the rest of the trip and I sent the injector away when I got home to Australia at the end of August. It's on it's way back now. The pictures of the injector I have seen show blackening, allegedly from an O2 fire from "dirty" oxygen, a problem that no-one else of the boat was afflicted with, but even if they were, it did not stop them diving and, hey, I was in Thailand, it's not like I get to choose where to get the oxygen from. There was also apparently corrosion from saltwater incursion. Again, my fault apparently and nothing to do with the shredded o-ring.

An interesting one to bring up Simon. Especially noting your supposed - in all bar the Wes Skiles instance at least - support of the use of checklists pre-dive.
You’d think that when a rebreather no matter the make, did something unexpected on a dive, one would fully investigate why before diving it again. There is certainly no way that this unit passed its pre-diving oxygen flow checks after that first dive…. The o-ring was shredded because it had been blown out! Which requires well in-excess of 300bar! Yes, like the Mk15 series and original KISS, the Apoc's oxygen injector can take the full HP oxygen if the seat fails. See my above point about customers force diving units when they shouldn’t!

But in this case this same customer sent their burnt out 1st stage/injector back not once but twice from two separate overseas dive trips for free warranty repair by OSEL! Pics and report were published in OSELs Newsletter to all customers. Good thing OSEL put the Apollo A320 1st stage through such rigorous testing at BAM.de, use very high quality inflammable materials in the oxygen system and use only Gleitmo 599 https://www.opensafety.eu/datasheets...(overseas).pdf as not even OSELs new progressive oxygen valve would have saved that divers unit from the outcome of a hydrocarbon contaminated oxygen fill. Which was the only way DL at OSELs request could recreate this specific and individual issue as reported.
No other customer has recreated this issue since, thankfully.

Brad, it seems my record of your company's quality control issues is more complete than yours. I would have thought an accurate record of these issues would be a pre-requisite for all those certifications you frequently boast about.

Feel free to re-read the various newsletters OSEL have published Simon and consider how much is disclosed… Then compare that with your preferred rebreather!
Pretty sure I covered most of the more interesting post production issues here https://www.thediveforum.com/showthr...l=1#post447655 so you might need to reread your RBW collection as you missed a few.

Of note EVERY single issue reported to OSEL is logged and disclosed to the auditors as a matter of course during every relevant certification audit. There is at least one a year for something. I’d think this is unique in the diving industry but them OSELs family of rebreathers are also the only rebreathers on the market with Functional Safety certification to 61508 with high SIL so the fact that no-one else bothers to report/track/fix issues is kind of irrelevant. After all, while I know you don't have to, potential customers diving other makes of rebreather seem quite happy to continue to pay other rebreather manufacturers through the nose multiple times to fix their design and QA issues

What you appear struggling to fathom Simone may be OSEL sticking their hand up and somewhat uniquely saying, yes it happened, yes OSEL fixed it at OSELs cost….
Contrast that to continuing claims made by others about their cracked cases, cracked handsets, corroded wiring, MAVs that fall off or stick, units that turn off when you roll backwards off a RHIB and BOVs that stick etc etc On return to their respective manufacturer insult is added to injury by having to pay for these supposed repairs…

Heck Simon you have me thinking of issues now and that makes me remember that you're still ignorant of the WOB of your own rebreathers BOV in OC and CC modes. And don't know why the unit you dive still does not come with a $20 gag strap as standard?

Not to mention problems with the promised products that were never released to customers, like the iCCR and the bailout rebreather you were touting in an earlier post.

Come again Simon. What problems? Oh yes, sorry, a number of divers force dived another brand of sports rebreather and shifted the functional safety requirement for the auto-bailout function of the iCCR to ‘always require’ from ‘attempt to’. Cost OSEL a lot of business that, as it continues to do you but I would hardly call it a problem with the rebreather itself. Delays since then are certainly a problem but it is not as if you can buy a rebreather with either the same functionality as the iCCR or the same breathing performance as any OSEL unit from any other manufacturer.

BTW it appears that UMG didn’t brief you very well for your work with them as OSELs commercial rebreather is a primary life support system fully CE certified for commercial use and happily dived by the customer with orders placed for a full production run.

While Simon is a lot more aware from a very very interesting perspective, of this project than he is letting on, others might be interested in educating themselves a little more per page 125 http://www.edtc.org/MINUTES/Minutes%...%20Meeting.pdf

Status pr date 11.10.2012
Technip No conducting diving at NYD
Number of divers 51
Hours in water 74
Number of dives 94
Unique manufacture new batch for CE certification and operational trials on Skandi Arctic
CE certification with SGS to 400 msw
Fathom feed study for interface to Skandi Arctic
Technip UK have ordered 14 Units, first 7 for operational trials planned for 1Q 2013

[cathal]

Yes there were some interesting choices made there weren’t there… I guess you could call a ship over-complicated when it carries the bailout gas http://www.energy-oil-gas.com/2012/02/29/unique-system/
Even more expensive when they built a ship around utilising said fully certified at that time primary rebreather life support system https://www.evolen.org/_upload/resso...arctic_jah.pdf

Especially considering OSEL owned and continue to own all the IP and tooling for the complete rebreather system inclusive of the SparkADA code! Supplied COTS with valid PO: albeit with solid-state O2 sensors now, OSELs progressive Oxygen valve and 350m CE/NORSOK certification if required.


Indeed https://www.facebook.com/OpenSafetyE...3144424405002/ would be great to see other rebreather manufacturers developing their own.
Especially with how inaccurate tempstiks and inhale CO2 monitoring are; as evidenced by the dearth of their testing.


No worries. You will. So nice diving such a light unit with its market lowest WOB. Proven to be safe enough to be shipped direct to customers doors fully diveable out of the box, just add gas and get trained.


Kinda correct. That was likely one of this batch of units https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=129100310476080

Per that demo Alex makes it quite clear that the fully controlled unit was for military use only. That specific military eCCR he refers to is this one https://www.facebook.com/OpenSafetyE...type=3&theater which is very nice to dive.
The sports units for recreational use OSEL offer have always been mCCR units at heart, even if O2 only. The iCCR is at its core an mCCR with intervention electronics overlaid.


Amusing. Plenty of credibility amongst the right players with OSELs Commercial and Military lines that are designed to be safely dived to 350m.
On the Recreational side no one is forcing anyone to dive an OSEL unit. But for those that do their research and compare the testing and systems engineering behind OSELs units compared to any competition the contrast is vast http://www.deeplife.co.uk/or_fmeca.php and http://www.deeplife.co.uk/or_dv.php

OSEL even sell their blank military eCCR head to anyone whom wants one to add to an Apoc. With at least a couple in active use as DIY eCCRs using off the self controllers. Will full ongoing support for the CCR provided by OSEL up to the 'e' bit, at that point you're on your own.


An interesting one to bring up Simon. Especially noting your supposed - in all bar the Wes Skiles instance at least - support of the use of checklists pre-dive.
You’d think that when a rebreather no matter the make, did something unexpected on a dive, one would fully investigate why before diving it again. There is certainly no way that this unit passed its pre-diving oxygen flow checks after that first dive…. The o-ring was shredded because it had been blown out! Which requires well in-excess of 300bar! Yes, like the Mk15 series and original KISS, the Apoc's oxygen injector can take the full HP oxygen if the seat fails. See my above point about customers force diving units when they shouldn’t!

But in this case this same customer sent their burnt out 1st stage/injector back not once but twice from two separate overseas dive trips for free warranty repair by OSEL! Pics and report were published in OSELs Newsletter to all customers. Good thing OSEL put the Apollo A320 1st stage through such rigorous testing at BAM.de, use very high quality inflammable materials in the oxygen system and use only Gleitmo 599 https://www.opensafety.eu/datasheets...(overseas).pdf as not even OSELs new progressive oxygen valve would have saved that divers unit from the outcome of a hydrocarbon contaminated oxygen fill. Which was the only way DL at OSELs request could recreate this specific and individual issue as reported.
No other customer has recreated this issue since, thankfully.


Feel free to re-read the various newsletters OSEL have published Simon and consider how much is disclosed… Then compare that with your preferred rebreather!
Pretty sure I covered most of the more interesting post production issues here https://www.thediveforum.com/showthr...l=1#post447655 so you might need to reread your RBW collection as you missed a few.

Of note EVERY single issue reported to OSEL is logged and disclosed to the auditors as a matter of course during every relevant certification audit. There is at least one a year for something. I’d think this is unique in the diving industry but them OSELs family of rebreathers are also the only rebreathers on the market with Functional Safety certification to 61508 with high SIL so the fact that no-one else bothers to report/track/fix issues is kind of irrelevant. After all, while I know you don't have to, potential customers diving other makes of rebreather seem quite happy to continue to pay other rebreather manufacturers through the nose multiple times to fix their design and QA issues

What you appear struggling to fathom Simone may be OSEL sticking their hand up and somewhat uniquely saying, yes it happened, yes OSEL fixed it at OSELs cost….
Contrast that to continuing claims made by others about their cracked cases, cracked handsets, corroded wiring, MAVs that fall off or stick, units that turn off when you roll backwards off a RHIB and BOVs that stick etc etc On return to their respective manufacturer insult is added to injury by having to pay for these supposed repairs…

Heck Simon you have me thinking of issues now and that makes me remember that you're still ignorant of the WOB of your own rebreathers BOV in OC and CC modes. And don't know why the unit you dive still does not come with a $20 gag strap as standard?


Come again Simon. What problems? Oh yes, sorry, a number of divers force dived another brand of sports rebreather and shifted the functional safety requirement for the auto-bailout function of the iCCR to ‘always require’ from ‘attempt to’. Cost OSEL a lot of business that, as it continues to do you but I would hardly call it a problem with the rebreather itself. Delays since then are certainly a problem but it is not as if you can buy a rebreather with either the same functionality as the iCCR or the same breathing performance as any OSEL unit from any other manufacturer.

BTW it appears that UMG didn’t brief you very well for your work with them as OSELs commercial rebreather is a primary life support system fully CE certified for commercial use and happily dived by the customer with orders placed for a full production run.

While Simon is a lot more aware from a very very interesting perspective, of this project than he is letting on, others might be interested in educating themselves a little more per page 125 http://www.edtc.org/MINUTES/Minutes%...%20Meeting.pdf

At this stage, all of your posts can be described as just meaningless, unsubstantiated, unverified waffle with a couple of dodgy PDF’s attached that no one believes, as pretty much no one has ever seen one of your units being dived ever!

[Paul Evans]

While Simon is a lot more aware from a very very interesting perspective, of this project than he is letting on, others might be interested in educating themselves a little more per page 125 http://www.edtc.org/MINUTES/Minutes%...%20Meeting.pdf

Fast forward to 2015 and Skandi Arctic is using the Divex SLS................

https://vimeo.com/147382001

:shagger

[WFO]

Indeed https://www.facebook.com/OpenSafetyE...3144424405002/ would be great to see other rebreather manufacturers developing their own.
Especially with how inaccurate tempstiks and inhale CO2 monitoring are; as evidenced by the dearth of their testing.

So the uber professional NORSOK military underwater knife fighting 350m certified company is relying on shit mobile phone videos on faceache to back up their point?

Carries about as much weight with me as it did in fucking court.

[gobfish1]

Fast forward to 2015 and Skandi Arctic is using the Divex SLS................

https://vimeo.com/147382001

:shagger

Much like the rest of us then.
Ie Not using OSEL pdf s for are day to day diving needs.