Buddy Checks/Alt Air Source Above Water.........

[Wibs]

Well done Steve.

It's staggering how distracting all this training malarkey is. It's 100% the responsibility of the instructor to monitor the gas of their trainees as the training is such a distraction. Let's hope the instructor benefited from his lesson as much as you two.

[Ian_6301]

Well done Steve.

It's staggering how distracting all this training malarkey is. It's 100% the responsibility of the instructor to monitor the gas of their trainees as the training is such a distraction. Let's hope the instructor benefited from his lesson as much as you two.

Can that really be right?

Why is the diver not responsible?

[Tel]

Can that really be right?

No it's not right.

The ONLY level where personal responsibility can't be assumed is when the trainee
is not actually a diver, on any entry level course like Ocean Diver or PADI OW etc.

Once trained that's a diver and one of the core skills no matter what, is watch your
gas.

While it's true that an Instructor has a duty of care to make sure any under his charge
has sufficient gas, that doesn't absolve a "diver" from being aware and checking his
own.

[Darren A]

Buddy Checks/Alt Air Source Above Water.........

No it's not right.

The ONLY level where personal responsibility can't be assumed is when the trainee
is not actually a diver, on any entry level course like Ocean Diver or PADI OW etc.

Once trained that's a diver and one of the core skills no matter what, is watch your
gas.

While it's true that an Instructor has a duty of care to make sure any under his charge
has sufficient gas, that doesn't absolve a "diver" from being aware and checking his
own.

Is this a 'Tel rule' or a 'Bsac/Padi rule'

[Ian_6301]

Is this a 'Tel rule' or a 'Bsac/Padi rule'

Sounds like natural selection to me...

[Tel]

Is this a 'Tel rule' or a 'Bsac/Padi rule'

Seriously?

Find me a course anywhere from any agency that says a diver shouldn't monitor
his own gas.

[Wibs]

Can that really be right?

Why is the diver not responsible?

It's self evident that the diver is always responsible for monitoring their gas.

However, the point of training is task loading. This will mean that it's not a standard dive, shit is happening all around which is generated by the instructor. It is the instructor who is responsible for their charges. Therefore it is the instructor who is responsible for making sure that their students manage their basic monitoring.

Now the diver who allowed their gas to run out is due a stern talking to - although not much more needs to be said as it's probably the best lesson ever taught to that student.

The instructor failed to monitor his students. Is that a dereliction of a duty of care?

[Wibs]

Seriously?

Find me a course anywhere from any agency that says a diver shouldn't monitor
his own gas.

Of course a student is responsible for monitoring their own life support status (gas, depth, deco, team, environment, etc).

It's the instructor who will be directing the student(s) with all sorts of tasks and distractions which will severely diminish a student's capabilities. It is always the instructor's responsibility to monitor their students under the full expectation that they will be distracted. Quite frankly this goes for all levels of training - advanced tech through to beginner. The instructor has a continuing duty of care to their students.

Sure, if a student fails to notice their gas is low, that student may well be failed. But not drowned.

[Tel]

Of course a student is responsible for monitoring their own life support status (gas, depth, deco, team, environment, etc).

It's the instructor who will be directing the student(s) with all sorts of tasks and distractions which will severely diminish a student's capabilities. It is always the instructor's responsibility to monitor their students under the full expectation that they will be distracted. Quite frankly this goes for all levels of training - advanced tech through to beginner. The instructor has a continuing duty of care to their students.

Sure, if a student fails to notice their gas is low, that student may well be failed. But not drowned.

We can both agree that the responsibility for being aware of the student's gas and any
necessary remedial or corrective action is that of the Instructor. Where we seem to differ
though is what responsibility the student has to do the same.

If you create an environment where its all on the Instructor the student has no incentive
to monitor gas. There has to be a very real emphasis that the Instructor will not be there
on the next dive and as such the student must respect gas management.

An entry level student by the very nature of the course cannot do this which makes it
the only exception, but past that this isn't a student on a course it's a fully certified
diver who is a student for elements of the course. Task loading is a poor excuse as
no task takes precedent over good gas management and if that is the case then it would
be better to stop the course altogether than fail what is one, if not the main must do
in diving.

[WFO]

Can't see many instructors taking the hump and stopping the course because their student was looking at their spg instead of them.

[Wibs]

We can both agree that the responsibility for being aware of the student's gas and any
necessary remedial or corrective action is that of the Instructor. Where we seem to differ
though is what responsibility the student has to do the same.

If you create an environment where its all on the Instructor the student has no incentive
to monitor gas. There has to be a very real emphasis that the Instructor will not be there
on the next dive and as such the student must respect gas management.

An entry level student by the very nature of the course cannot do this which makes it
the only exception, but past that this isn't a student on a course it's a fully certified
diver who is a student for elements of the course. Task loading is a poor excuse as
no task takes precedent over good gas management and if that is the case then it would
be better to stop the course altogether than fail what is one, if not the main must do
in diving.

To go back to the OP's example, the instructor failed to notice his student's gas was dangerously low, way below minimum gas for that dive -- 80 bar?

Yes, the student is utterly responsible for monitoring their own life support. But the instructor should be aware of their student's status. That is the biggest failure here as the instructor knows this as one of the key factors in being a trainer.

[Ian_6301]

Not sure that I'd promote a teaching plan that encourages stressing divers by introducing skills before their basic "platform" of solid skills was able to withstand it.

By that, I mean being aware of and in command of their position in 3 dimensions and 3 axes, the location and status of their team mates, their geographical location and route out, their gas situation and deco requirements.

Those are the basics that I would consider necessary before starting to task load a diver with other things.

Funnily enough, I'm only aware of one agency that does this though.

[WFO]

Reminds me of "aviate, navigate, communicate"

[nigel hewitt]

Reminds me of "aviate, navigate, communicate"

"Fly the damn plane" I think it was

[Tel]

Not sure that I'd promote a teaching plan that encourages stressing divers by introducing skills before their basic "platform" of solid skills was able to withstand it.

By that, I mean being aware of and in command of their position in 3 dimensions and 3 axes, the location and status of their team mates, their geographical location and route out, their gas situation and deco requirements.

Those are the basics that I would consider necessary before starting to task load a diver with other things.

Funnily enough, I'm only aware of one agency that does this though.

Not so much the only agency, possibly a more accurate description would be an agency that is
way better at applying the concept.