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  1. #1
    Moderator GLOC's Avatar
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    Andrew Fock's CCR Fatalities Paper - Published and Downloadable

    Andrew Fock's CCR Fatality paper finally published. The data is not perfect but the best we have

    http://www.dhmjournal.com/files/Fock...her_deaths.pdf

    There is no one unit worse than another and the increased risk is somewhere between 4 and 10 times for CCR diving.

    Regards
    Last edited by GLOC; 17-06-2013 at 05:50 AM.
    Gareth

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  2. #2
    Purine hurts my feet Major Clanger's Avatar
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    What intrigues me is that there are advocates insisting that mccr's are safer than eccr's, yet time and again the failure point leading to fatality has been the human incorrectly operating it. A similar argument preceded fly-by-wire about aircraft operation. Set it up correctly, let it do its job, monitor diligently and respond appropriately to warning signs...

    Useful report.
    GaryL

  3. #3
    Purine hurts my feet Major Clanger's Avatar
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    A further conclusion is that in first stages of ccr experience there should be no decompression dives and any equipment fault should be met with oc bailout as the only option. We give you the Mark VI, safe as houses. That suggestion won't get much support...
    GaryL

  4. #4
    Old but keen Mark Chase's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Major Clanger View Post
    What intrigues me is that there are advocates insisting that mccr's are safer than eccr's, yet time and again the failure point leading to fatality has been the human incorrectly operating it. A similar argument preceded fly-by-wire about aircraft operation. Set it up correctly, let it do its job, monitor diligently and respond appropriately to warning signs...

    Useful report.


    Its perfictly simple.

    Divers who dive MCCR do so knowing if they dont pay attention they will 100% die

    QED they pay attention.

    Divers who dive ECCR rely on the unit to keep them alive and dont pay attention

    Thats why they die

    Which is why we have a death per unit sold of some ECCR of as low as 1:40 and Death per unit sold of MCCR of 1:250

    ATB

    Mark

  5. #5
    TDF Member Johnr's Avatar
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    As on OC diver my perception of CCR was that the risk of CCR diving was mostly associated to mechanical failure. Improvement/reduction in the death rates would be addressed by improving the reliability of the units.

    Interesting from the report he states this risk is very low and and most of the failure issues are related to training, maintenance and pre live checks i.e. efforts best applied to these areas rather than relaibility.

  6. #6
    Purine hurts my feet Major Clanger's Avatar
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    Andrew Fock's CCR Fatalities Paper - Published and Downloadable

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Chase View Post
    Its perfictly simple.

    Divers who dive MCCR do so knowing if they dont pay attention they will 100% die

    QED they pay attention.

    Divers who dive ECCR rely on the unit to keep them alive and dont pay attention

    Thats why they die

    Which is why we have a death per unit sold of some ECCR of as low as 1:40 and Death per unit sold of MCCR of 1:250

    ATB

    Mark
    I get that but surely it's still wrong to conclude an mccr is a safer unit, when the weakness is the human involved.
    GaryL

  7. #7
    Old but keen Mark Chase's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Major Clanger View Post
    I get that but surely it's still wrong to conclude an mccr is a safer unit, when the weakness is the human involved.


    MCCR is by far the more dangerous unit which is why MCCR divers dive with a more safety concious attitude and why MCCR divers are usualy divers who prefer to take personal control of their diving safety.

    GUE atracts people of a GUE mind set which is a good mind set.

    MCCR atracts divers with a MCCR mindset which is a good mind set.



    I find the conclusions for MCCR statistics to be very odd. There have been two KISS deaths in 5-600 units sold (and that ignores the Sport KISS sales) so 1:250 fatality risk

    The Inspo and Meg are well below 1:100 the super safety concious Posiden is surely arround the 1:50 mark?

    I do wonder how they form their statistical analisis? They were using the same (all be it corected) dive life data base as i did.

  8. #8
    Old but keen Mark Chase's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Major Clanger View Post
    I get that but surely it's still wrong to conclude an mccr is a safer unit, when the weakness is the human involved.



    But with the increased number of deaths on ECCR, surely its obvious its not a unit safety issue but a diver safety issue.


    Stick as many safety feetures as you like on the units but they will fail or be worked arround and divers who are not paying attention will die.

    ATB

    Mark

  9. #9
    Established TDF Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnr View Post
    Interesting from the report he states this risk is very low and and most of the failure issues are related to training, maintenance and pre live checks i.e. efforts best applied to these areas rather than relaibility.
    If CCR more divers followed the "If my unit isn't 100% OK, I won't get in" rule a lot of deaths would have been avoided.

    I was on a CCR dive trip in Red Sea where one of our number died on the first day. Diver had problems with his DSV on first shallow checkout dive, had fitted some home-brew HUD that seemed to effect the WOB. On second dive dispite been offered use of another standard DSV (I wittnessed it) they dived unit with known problem. Don't think the mod directly caused there death, but I feel it caused a stress situation which did. Diver seen be buddy heading for the surface, dead on surface, probable heart attack. We never found out what really happened & by the time there unit was inspected it had been mishandled by the Egypian police destroying any evidence. But that's the nature of CCR incidents!

  10. #10
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    Andrew Fock's CCR Fatalities Paper - Published and Downloadable

    Eccrs seem to be broken much more regularly than mccrs...

    Hence more divers diving a broken system

    I went for a kiss because they are highly reliable, simple, I am in control of it

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk


 
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