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  1. #11
    TDF Member Scubee's Avatar
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    No arms? No problam

    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianG View Post
    True, but I prefer:


    We can't do it without artificially, by whatever means, taking our breathing gas with us (and hoping that nothing breaks while we're at it).

    There is also a case to be made for not teaching diving to (the likes of):

    Children, people with impairments (whether physical or health) etc.

    No, I'm not necessarily talking about those who have had heart attacks and who still, with the approval of their cardiologists (or whatever) dive. This is more applicable to those that cannot, or will not, see the ramifications of their actions because of their innocence towards this diving thingie. The person in question fits squarely into that category.

    Would you like to be the perspn assigned to act as buddy to this person? Who, then, is your own buddy? What happens, for example. if her mask strap breaks or the mask otherwise gets dislodged? Are you aware of the special requirements of this person? Especially things such as BCDs "controlled by the legs"? Is that person's husband-to-be going to be her buddy in future? Is he in fact capable of doing that? Actually I'm only presuming that he's a diver because of where they want to honeymoon.

    Sorry, I suppose I'm acting as devil's advocate. Yes, definitely, it's an accomplishment - but at what cost? In fact at what potential cost?
    Could we get back into the 21st century please?

    Gone are the days when people who had an impairment of some sort were prevented from doing things by those who 'knew better'. These days, we have the knowledge to make adjustments which means people can do whatever they wish, in spite of a disability.

    I suppose next you'll be saying that a football club were wrong to put Dave, who is registered blind, in goal.

    You say you are being 'devils advocate'. That term is very often used by those who want to display prejudice but don't accept their bigoted views.

    Fwiw, I've dived with plenty of people who were not going to be in a position to rescue me, and will do so again.

  2. #12
    Established TDF Member ChristianG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scubee View Post
    I suppose next you'll be saying that a football club were wrong to put Dave, who is registered blind, in goal.
    I suppose it depends on "Dave" but, as coach, I'd have to think long and hard about it. Why is it, for example, that women rarely compete directly with men? Even in sports where they are supposed to have an advantage? I refer here, particularly, to a recent women's world champion at show jumping, apparently the first time that there was an overall women's world champion at anything at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scubee View Post
    You say you are being 'devils advocate'. That term is very often used by those who want to display prejudice but don't accept their bigoted views.
    I would prefer to call it being practical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scubee View Post
    Fwiw, I've dived with plenty of people who were not going to be in a position to rescue me, and will do so again.
    Actually, so have I, with novices, when I go without the camera and consider myself a "solo" diver.

    I know, it's not PC to utter such views in this day and age when everyone seems to be "enabled" but from a practical point of view I hope that some will at least have a rethink of their position, whether they change their minds or not.

  3. #13
    Established TDF Member ChristianG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uwila View Post
    No there isn't. Not ever.

    There is a case for letting people know of the modified risks they would face and then to let them decide if they wish to take them. My son is 9 years old and will take a diving course just as soon as he is 10 - if he still wants to next year. He wouldn't be able to rescue me from every possible accident, but that will not stop me from diving with him. Just as long as I and his mother understand and accept the risks (we assume the responsibility for accepting risk on his part until he is older), he will be allowed to dive.
    I'm sure you've read it but Why I Do NOT Train Kids In Scuba Diving

    Yes, it's old. The whole point though is that nothing's changed since it first saw the light of day.

    Quote Originally Posted by uwila View Post
    What about when I fly an aeroplane - there's nobody to rescue me if I have a survivable stroke or heart attack and I could easily die if I crashed in such a situation. Should this be banned as well?
    Funnily enugh it's an example I use quite often when talking about self sufficient diving, but you probably already knew that.

    Quote Originally Posted by uwila View Post
    Come on, let people accept their own risks and have the pleasure of diving/flying/riding a horse/racing a car whether or not they have as many arms as you.
    NO, I refuse to believe that either children or adults with disabilities (of whatever ilk) should be put into a position where their minds are made up for them. because that is what, in fact, is happening. What do they know of the underwater world? Probably what they've seen on TV which usually consists of divers in perfect visibility on a coral reef somewhere. You and I know that in the real world diving is mostly very different to that.
    Last edited by ChristianG; 04-09-2013 at 10:59 AM.

  4. #14
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    NO, I refuse to believe that either children or adults with disabilities (of whatever ilk) should be put into a position where their minds are made up for them. because that is what, in fact, is happening. What do they know of the underwater world? Probably what they've seen on TV which usually consists of divers in perfect visibility on a coral reef somewhere. You and I know that in the real world diving is mostly very different to that.[/QUOTE]

    Christian I am afraid you must never have heard of scuba trust over there!
    When it comes down to it the work evolved with Doctors, Dive Associations, Mainly BSAC and PADI although DAN got involved as well some senior professors and several Disability Charities how do I know this well because my Father was involved very early on and put in an incredible amount of man hours writing reports and coming up with safety procedures and even then some could not be trained.

    The 2001 "lecture is an opinion not fact" and even states several times that it is?

    As for child divers I am a very early child diver I had to pass all my theory and rescue skills as this was early eighties that included removing a diver from the water.

    Maybe it says a lot more about your teaching abilities rather than the studentís ability to learn?

    I think you might be underestimating parents who allow their children to dive as far as I have seen it is not undertaken lightly.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianG View Post
    NO, I refuse to believe that either children or adults with disabilities (of whatever ilk) should be put into a position where their minds are made up for them. because that is what, in fact, is happening. What do they know of the underwater world? Probably what they've seen on TV which usually consists of divers in perfect visibility on a coral reef somewhere. You and I know that in the real world diving is mostly very different to that.
    Christian, my wife & I assume responsibility for my children in everything they do - football, learning how to cross the road, travel with us in a car, go flying...Some of these are very dangerous and the children are put into dangerous situations every single day.

    What does anybody know of the underwater world before they learn about it? Loosing a limb or two in an accident does not turn a person into a mentally deficient blob who requires your superior knowledge and permission to learn how to dive.

    Quote Originally Posted by smudger View Post
    I think you might be underestimating parents who allow their children to dive as far as I have seen it is not undertaken lightly.
    Yup, I want my son's to have fun, but only when the risks have been considered and mitigated. Those of us who allow our children to dive aren't doing this without considering the risks/benefits, it's just that our opinion is different from yours.

    Cheers, Chris

  6. #16
    Purine hurts my feet Major Clanger's Avatar
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    No arms? No problam

    Physical impairment should be no barrier to diving. Having seen a registered blind person, who only learnt to dive after becoming blind, prepare and then dive his rebreather with minimal assistance, I believe that more than ever.

    My daughter dives. She pushed it to learn at 13. At that age she was more than capable of deciding to undertake it and knows her limits. With the right mentor, anything is possible.
    GaryL

  7. #17
    TDF Member Scubee's Avatar
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    No arms? No problam

    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianG View Post


    NO, I refuse to believe that either children or adults with disabilities (of whatever ilk) should be put into a position where their minds are made up for them. because that is what, in fact, is happening.
    oh, the irony.

    Are you not seeking to make someone's mind up for them by saying it isn't appropriate for a person with a disability to dive?

    What do they know of the underwater world? Probably what they've seen on TV which usually consists of divers in perfect visibility on a coral reef somewhere. You and I know that in the real world diving is mostly very different to that.
    What did any of us know before we dived?

    Get off your bloody high horse.

    Diving isn't difficult, and it isn't exclusive. Everyone should be able to try it *if they want to*, not only those who fit your exacting standards.

  8. #18
    Established TDF Member ChristianG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scubee View Post
    Diving isn't difficult, and it isn't exclusive. Everyone should be able to try it *if they want to*
    Quite, as long as you emphasise the "they" bit.

    The problem, as I see it anyway, is that there are many who try to make up the minds of others. Last time I looked, that's called "politics".

  9. #19
    aka demonweb j_b's Avatar
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    Re: No arms? No problam

    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianG View Post
    Quite, as long as you emphasise the "they" bit.

    The problem, as I see it anyway, is that there are many who try to make up the minds of others. Last time I looked, that's called "politics".
    Not many post make me think "FFS" but this is definitely one of them.
    What are you on?

    Sent from my GT-P5110 using Tapatalk 2

  10. #20
    being naughty Seastar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianG View Post
    NO, I refuse to believe that either children or adults with disabilities (of whatever ilk) should be put into a position where their minds are made up for them. because that is what, in fact, is happening. What do they know of the underwater world? Probably what they've seen on TV which usually consists of divers in perfect visibility on a coral reef somewhere. You and I know that in the real world diving is mostly very different to that.

    Ha ha ha, this is a wind up or have I time travelled to the 1950's - I'm sure you didn't mean to imply that people with disabilities cannot make their own mind up for them. Oh I wish you were nearer and I could take you to a Scuba Trust session...

    Do you really think we forced these people to dive:
    http://www.mencap.org.uk/all-about-l...me-allan-sears

    The paralysed diver | British Diver
    "avoid the teachings of speculators whose judgements are not confirmed by experience" da Vinci

    TDFCharity donations|ScubaTrust


 
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