Electric vehicles - dead technology or not?

[Adrian]

It’s actually used to remove the power demand surges from when people suddenly demand power - I.e. at advert breaks when people want a cuppa. It’s needed because none of our other power generating systems can spin up to meet that demand in the same time. (16seconds) Hence it’s showing as not doing much right now, if anything it’ll be drawing from the grid as it fills the top lake back up.
It’s not there to supply continuous power.

As I said the place is quite impressive - the turbine hall is worth a good walk around. It actually doesn’t need that much height - 500m. They were going to put one on exmoor but we’re still waiting. Geology is also not really relevant - you just need a hill and some will.

The degree is CEng with a specialism in CEng in developing countries - quite a lot of renewables coverage, hydroelectric on small scales - anything with free power - I’m just sticking 276 solar panels over a car park in Cambs.

Grid watch is interesting - 41% of the uk’s power is currently being generated by wind and 52% by renewables including more solar and hydro than coal.

B

IIRC, it's even more subtle than that. It's not just about the quick spinup to power, but to support Hertz. Frequency drops with loss of supply or sudden increase in demand. +/- 1 Hz leads to automatic loadshedding to protect the grid from cascade failure. This is what happened in August 2019. Don't ask me how all this works!

[Wibs]

It’s actually used to remove the power demand surges from when people suddenly demand power - I.e. at advert breaks when people want a cuppa. It’s needed because none of our other power generating systems can spin up to meet that demand in the same time. (16seconds) Hence it’s showing as not doing much right now, if anything it’ll be drawing from the grid as it fills the top lake back up.
It’s not there to supply continuous power.

As I said the place is quite impressive - the turbine hall is worth a good walk around. It actually doesn’t need that much height - 500m. They were going to put one on exmoor but we’re still waiting. Geology is also not really relevant - you just need a hill and some will.

The degree is CEng with a specialism in CEng in developing countries - quite a lot of renewables coverage, hydroelectric on small scales - anything with free power - I’m just sticking 276 solar panels over a car park in Cambs.

Grid watch is interesting - 41% of the uk’s power is currently being generated by wind and 52% by renewables including more solar and hydro than coal.

A battery then. As you said, it smooths out demand when there's short-term peaks. Have seen some of the films from there including the massive concrete pipes. When was it built? Not quite the Victorians, but decades ago.

Wind and solar have the difficulty that they may not generate much power for days on end given the weather; as happened over the previous few weeks -- source gridwatch.
To smooth out these longer term drops in generating capacity other technologies need to be employed: adding supply from Gas/Coal, or reducing demand by turning off consumption as enabled by smart meters, car chargers, etc.

It's great to see wind power generating 50% of the UK's needs. However, as you're all encouraging greater consumption, the demand for electrical supply will need triple or quadruple when oil and gas is removed from transport and heating. That 50% wind power needs to be tripled/quadrupled meaning much of our coastline covered in wind generators. And still there's the need to provide the base load when there's no wind. Mustn't forget the massive upgrade in The Grid to cope.


How about a simple consumer ROI choice?
Imagine a broken oil boiler that needs to be replaced.
Replacement cost circa £3,500 including all works, disposal and some other miscellaneous plumbing. Consumes about 1,500 litres of oil a year stored in a 2,500 litre tank, call it £1/litre, so £1,500 running costs (plus a little bit of 'leccy), also an annual service of around £150. House warm and toasty and a cold house will warm up on demand within 30 mins. If power cuts become a thing, could run a diesel generator from the oil supply to run the house.

The alternative is of course a heat pump. The plumbing would need to be replaced, loads of additional work done, the heat pump left on for much of the year to eke out as much as it can from the outside heat/cold. During cold snaps it won't cope, so requires immersion heaters to augment the struggling heat pump. Installation costs in excess of £15,000 and much more for ground source with running costs of £5,000 per year (estimated). Servicing costs to be added.

One really small point to add; electricity costs went through the roof due to some "foreign problems". So much so, it's a crisis like everything these days, our benevolent socialist government stepped in and subsidised household electricity bills. That £5k (estimated) would have been goodness knows how much if there was no energy price cap -- talk to any small business that didn't benefit from a cap.

Which would you choose and why?

[notdeadyet]

When was it built? Not quite the Victorians, but decades ago.

And? Of the 2000+ power generating facilities in the UK, when were the bulk of the non-nuclear/non-renewable plants built? Clue, it's not this century either. Assuming you are talking about Cruachan then early 60's and Drax are currently refitting it.

Most of our infrastructure is old and shit. I know, whine, whine, Labour never build anything...

Neither do the Tories. (2 since the end of the coalition and one of them only provides 5% of the energy of Cruachan)

[Barrygoss]

A battery then. As you said, it smooths out demand when there's short-term peaks. Have seen some of the films from there including the massive concrete pipes. When was it built? Not quite the Victorians, but decades ago.

Wind and solar have the difficulty that they may not generate much power for days on end given the weather; as happened over the previous few weeks -- source gridwatch.
To smooth out these longer term drops in generating capacity other technologies need to be employed: adding supply from Gas/Coal, or reducing demand by turning off consumption as enabled by smart meters, car chargers, etc.

It's great to see wind power generating 50% of the UK's needs. However, as you're all encouraging greater consumption, the demand for electrical supply will need triple or quadruple when oil and gas is removed from transport and heating. That 50% wind power needs to be tripled/quadrupled meaning much of our coastline covered in wind generators. And still there's the need to provide the base load when there's no wind. Mustn't forget the massive upgrade in The Grid to cope.


How about a simple consumer ROI choice?
Imagine a broken oil boiler that needs to be replaced.
Replacement cost circa £3,500 including all works, disposal and some other miscellaneous plumbing. Consumes about 1,500 litres of oil a year stored in a 2,500 litre tank, call it £1/litre, so £1,500 running costs (plus a little bit of 'leccy), also an annual service of around £150. House warm and toasty and a cold house will warm up on demand within 30 mins. If power cuts become a thing, could run a diesel generator from the oil supply to run the house.

The alternative is of course a heat pump. The plumbing would need to be replaced, loads of additional work done, the heat pump left on for much of the year to eke out as much as it can from the outside heat/cold. During cold snaps it won't cope, so requires immersion heaters to augment the struggling heat pump. Installation costs in excess of £15,000 and much more for ground source with running costs of £5,000 per year (estimated). Servicing costs to be added.

One really small point to add; electricity costs went through the roof due to some "foreign problems". So much so, it's a crisis like everything these days, our benevolent socialist government stepped in and subsidised household electricity bills. That £5k (estimated) would have been goodness knows how much if there was no energy price cap -- talk to any small business that didn't benefit from a cap.

Which would you choose and why?

Bit if a straw man argument - you expect me to chose between a shit choice.
How about - tidal - removes the need for gas and coal entirely and is limitless
If I was building from scratch it would be a ground source heat pump in a properly insulated building.
But if you really wanted to keep consumption (and don’t forget all these heat pumps need electricity) how about delinking the renewables from the gas generation price - buy electricity based on what it costs to produce - you’d soon see a customer switch to renewables then, if you added in paying people properly for the solar generated and put back into the grid - say 40p per kWh not the measley 4p and watch micro generation across the country take off.

B

Oh and pumped hydro is currently providing 2% of the electric in the UK - also Gridwatch just guesses the solar production - could be many times more or less

[Wibs]

Bit if a straw man argument - you expect me to chose between a shit choice.

Which neatly sums up the state of play with environmental choices.

Hardly surprisingly I opted for the vastly cheaper option of replacing the oil fired boiler as the heat pump is inappropriate technology for average houses in the UK.
I can also sleep well at night because I didn't commission goodness knows how much additional carbon to be emitted through the manufacturing of all the additional equipment and scrappage of perfectly serviceable old parts.

EVs are like that too. Inadequate technology for much of the time; crappy range, heavy, reliant on extremely scarce resources, then adding to the electricity shortages. Also very expensive and won't make 100k miles or much more.

If only the accountants would stop lying. And the activists too.

Love the interviews on the far-left BBC WATO today. They'd found some geezer who flogs car batteries who's pissed off because he was looking forwards to all that lovely profit coming in the next few years and it's scuppered by reality. Most people who are rattled by the "cost of living crisis" ain't seen nothing yet, for when the green lunacy kicks in and pushes up the costs even further. Green jobs. Yeah, right. Cheap Chinese tech built by coal fired energy destroying whatever was left of our industry whilst scrapping perfectly good and working equipment and vehicles.

[Barrygoss]

Which neatly sums up the state of play with environmental choices.

Hardly surprisingly I opted for the vastly cheaper option of replacing the oil fired boiler as the heat pump is inappropriate technology for average houses in the UK.
I can also sleep well at night because I didn't commission goodness knows how much additional carbon to be emitted through the manufacturing of all the additional equipment and scrappage of perfectly serviceable old parts.

EVs are like that too. Inadequate technology for much of the time; crappy range, heavy, reliant on extremely scarce resources, then adding to the electricity shortages. Also very expensive and won't make 100k miles or much more.

If only the accountants would stop lying. And the activists too.

Love the interviews on the far-left BBC WATO today. They'd found some geezer who flogs car batteries who's pissed off because he was looking forwards to all that lovely profit coming in the next few years and it's scuppered by reality. Most people who are rattled by the "cost of living crisis" ain't seen nothing yet, for when the green lunacy kicks in and pushes up the costs even further. Green jobs. Yeah, right. Cheap Chinese tech built by coal fired energy destroying whatever was left of our industry whilst scrapping perfectly good and working equipment and vehicles.

Word salad kept for prosperity.
So much wrong or badly misinformed in this post.

GS heat pumps are probably the most efficient cost effective way of heating a house.
If you’ve proof of all these lies - list them here.


B

[Barrygoss]

Which neatly sums up the state of play with environmental choices.

Hardly surprisingly I opted for the vastly cheaper option of replacing the oil fired boiler as the heat pump is inappropriate technology for average houses in the UK.
I can also sleep well at night because I didn't commission goodness knows how much additional carbon to be emitted through the manufacturing of all the additional equipment and scrappage of perfectly serviceable old parts.

EVs are like that too. Inadequate technology for much of the time; crappy range, heavy, reliant on extremely scarce resources, then adding to the electricity shortages. Also very expensive and won't make 100k miles or much more.

If only the accountants would stop lying. And the activists too.

Love the interviews on the far-left BBC WATO today. They'd found some geezer who flogs car batteries who's pissed off because he was looking forwards to all that lovely profit coming in the next few years and it's scuppered by reality. Most people who are rattled by the "cost of living crisis" ain't seen nothing yet, for when the green lunacy kicks in and pushes up the costs even further. Green jobs. Yeah, right. Cheap Chinese tech built by coal fired energy destroying whatever was left of our industry whilst scrapping perfectly good and working equipment and vehicles.

Also you may want to check out some factual video.

Be fun to know what you think, which way do you go?

https://youtu.be/Fys5Z63xCvA?si=xWjq6YiwHtEFp76b

B

[notdeadyet]

Also you may want to check out some factual video.

Be fun to know what you think, which way do you go?

https://youtu.be/Fys5Z63xCvA?si=xWjq6YiwHtEFp76b

B

Good old Maggie, still manages to blame brown people for it all.

[Jay_Benson]

Chrisch is quite right I missed tidal off the list. The biggest single system and I forget about it. Tosser. It is also utterly predictable.

As for hydro and geothermal not being worthwhile in the UK others have already demolished your spurious claim about hydro leaving me to do the same for geothermal.

Firstly, there can be considered two branches of geothermal energy - low grade and high grade. Both are very useful and can work in concert with each other.

Low grade. This is the low temperature energy that is used in heating homes. By the way your claim that heat pumps can’t come with cold weather is true - if you have screwed up the installation and specification in the first place - in the same way that the single candle you specified for heating and lighting a house actually doesn’t cut it in reality - specify it right and the job works very well. It is not complicated, just a technology that is now being used in houses when it wasn’t often, say, 20 years ago.

High grade. This is electricity generation and potentially district heating. Depending on the location the depth that you need to drill varied - in Iceland it is quite low but it some parts of the UK it is relatively deep. However, once built the electricity generated costs around 5p per kWh. Interestingly in the recent licence sale in which you query why no one bought the options for off shore wind (the price demanded meant no profit could be made as the idiots in charge, despite being repeatedly told, ignored inflation) saw licences for geothermal electricity production being sold- clearly the industry did not bother consulting you.
In 2019 around 15GW of electrical generation capacity was working as well as 28GW of district heating. These numbers are going up at an increasing rate globally. This is great base load energy generation, they’re all the time just churning the energy out. To be fair though this is not a renewable source as in another 20,000 years we may have used most of it up.

[Chrisch]

....
One really small point to add; electricity costs went through the roof due to some "foreign problems". ...

In the interests of accuracy the hike in electricity prices is due to the greed of the electricity companies. In addition the moron government peg the leccy to gas which is pretty much the opposite of the lies they spout about "free markets" and other such nonsense to get the gammon vote.

The billionaire Putin gets his money from oil and gas and the war has pushed up oil and gas prices. Not to mention the lithium reserves in Ukraine. But the Russian gammons fall for it.

Thick twats are the problem the world over.