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  1. #1
    Tofu eating wokerato Chrisch's Avatar
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    Electric vehicles - dead technology or not?

    OK so we should all be diving in the glorious weather but here's a new topic to pass the time away if you cannot get to the water.

    We (well the missus) have bought an electric trials bike (https://electric-motion.co.uk/produc...BoCZfcQAvD_BwE) Not the new one but a two year old version. We aint that rich

    Today's gruniard has this from a well know person who might surprise you with his academic background https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...rowan-atkinson

    So what's the groupthink? The cars and vans are a problem for me work wise as a lot of them will not tow anything and so will affect my business. There are some developments for the towing industry that might create an opportunity in the future but are not really here yet. (https://rvdaily.com.au/al-ko-reveals...ravan-chassis/)

    Now me, I think that EV is a dead end for much of the automotive applications. The "ban" on ICE will get delayed then dropped and the interests of the fossil fuel companies will win out over the need to leave the shit in the ground. However, the bike is great and certainly an application that has legs. (well wheels realy) Motorcycles generally are not suitable for electric as the regeneration is wrong way round - a front wheel drive system works but bikes drive at the rear. For the very specialised trials sector it doesn't matter. Our new bike has done a couple of days practice and still has juice left in it. We're going to give it another run today and a proper trial Wednesday night. It is slightly (about 5Kg) heavier than a petrol bike. New battery technology might shave that off future models.

    The shop had a new Mecatechno, but at ten grand just too much. (https://mecatecnomotorcycles.com/) But I want one and would buy onw when they come up secondhand at a decent price.

    Like the ebikes (pushbikes) the electric motorbikes appear to have a battery pack based on pretty standard LiOn cells rather than bespoke batteries. I think ours runs on Panasonic NCR18650A which are cheap (https://cellsupply.co.uk/product/pan...BoCCgUQAvD_BwE). I am basing this on a US rider that has had the pack apart (https://www.electricmotiontech.com/h...e-race/battery)

    OK so that's a lof of links and a lot of reading. (And a lot about trials bikes if you are not interested in them)

    What do people think about actual cars? (FWIW I am sticking with our diesel for the time being)

    Me, I say the writing is on the wall.
    There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and Tory corruption and I am not sure about the universe.
    With apologies to Albert Einstein.

  2. #2
    Established TDF Member jamesp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    OK so we should all be diving in the glorious weather but here's a new topic to pass the time away if you cannot get to the water.

    We (well the missus) have bought an electric trials bike (https://electric-motion.co.uk/produc...BoCZfcQAvD_BwE) Not the new one but a two year old version. We aint that rich

    Today's gruniard has this from a well know person who might surprise you with his academic background https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...rowan-atkinson

    So what's the groupthink? The cars and vans are a problem for me work wise as a lot of them will not tow anything and so will affect my business. There are some developments for the towing industry that might create an opportunity in the future but are not really here yet. (https://rvdaily.com.au/al-ko-reveals...ravan-chassis/)

    Now me, I think that EV is a dead end for much of the automotive applications. The "ban" on ICE will get delayed then dropped and the interests of the fossil fuel companies will win out over the need to leave the shit in the ground. However, the bike is great and certainly an application that has legs. (well wheels realy) Motorcycles generally are not suitable for electric as the regeneration is wrong way round - a front wheel drive system works but bikes drive at the rear. For the very specialised trials sector it doesn't matter. Our new bike has done a couple of days practice and still has juice left in it. We're going to give it another run today and a proper trial Wednesday night. It is slightly (about 5Kg) heavier than a petrol bike. New battery technology might shave that off future models.

    The shop had a new Mecatechno, but at ten grand just too much. (https://mecatecnomotorcycles.com/) But I want one and would buy onw when they come up secondhand at a decent price.

    Like the ebikes (pushbikes) the electric motorbikes appear to have a battery pack based on pretty standard LiOn cells rather than bespoke batteries. I think ours runs on Panasonic NCR18650A which are cheap (https://cellsupply.co.uk/product/pan...BoCCgUQAvD_BwE). I am basing this on a US rider that has had the pack apart (https://www.electricmotiontech.com/h...e-race/battery)

    OK so that's a lof of links and a lot of reading. (And a lot about trials bikes if you are not interested in them)

    What do people think about actual cars? (FWIW I am sticking with our diesel for the time being)

    Me, I say the writing is on the wall.
    Bosch gave up developing new diesel engine systems about five years ago.

    What does the petrol bike weigh, 80kgs?
    An extra 5kgs (~6%) on what is basically a stripped down competition vehicle is not a high point of the specification, Flat instant torque curve would be, but that would be interesting to see the numbers next to the petrol bike.

    Bespoke = cost, that`s why they are standard batteries.
    Ever seen the Mercedes AA class gag on you tube?
    Not actually far from the truth.

    Same as most things, its the control systems that are making the advances, over relatively old hat technology.

  3. #3
    Cheeky Monkey... Paul Evans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    OK so we should all be diving in the glorious weather but here's a new topic to pass the time away if you cannot get to the water.

    We (well the missus) have bought an electric trials bike (https://electric-motion.co.uk/produc...BoCZfcQAvD_BwE) Not the new one but a two year old version. We aint that rich

    Today's gruniard has this from a well know person who might surprise you with his academic background https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...rowan-atkinson

    So what's the groupthink? The cars and vans are a problem for me work wise as a lot of them will not tow anything and so will affect my business. There are some developments for the towing industry that might create an opportunity in the future but are not really here yet. (https://rvdaily.com.au/al-ko-reveals...ravan-chassis/)

    Now me, I think that EV is a dead end for much of the automotive applications. The "ban" on ICE will get delayed then dropped and the interests of the fossil fuel companies will win out over the need to leave the shit in the ground. However, the bike is great and certainly an application that has legs. (well wheels realy) Motorcycles generally are not suitable for electric as the regeneration is wrong way round - a front wheel drive system works but bikes drive at the rear. For the very specialised trials sector it doesn't matter. Our new bike has done a couple of days practice and still has juice left in it. We're going to give it another run today and a proper trial Wednesday night. It is slightly (about 5Kg) heavier than a petrol bike. New battery technology might shave that off future models.

    The shop had a new Mecatechno, but at ten grand just too much. (https://mecatecnomotorcycles.com/) But I want one and would buy onw when they come up secondhand at a decent price.

    Like the ebikes (pushbikes) the electric motorbikes appear to have a battery pack based on pretty standard LiOn cells rather than bespoke batteries. I think ours runs on Panasonic NCR18650A which are cheap (https://cellsupply.co.uk/product/pan...BoCCgUQAvD_BwE). I am basing this on a US rider that has had the pack apart (https://www.electricmotiontech.com/h...e-race/battery)

    OK so that's a lof of links and a lot of reading. (And a lot about trials bikes if you are not interested in them)

    What do people think about actual cars? (FWIW I am sticking with our diesel for the time being)

    Me, I say the writing is on the wall.
    Well I can tell you one thing, having hobbies like that isn't going to save the planet, doesn't matter if its petrol or electric, it shouldn't have been made in the first place... Needless gratuitous entertainment for the obviously over entitled I'd say One had better get off Ones high horse with hobbies like that

    Lithium ion powered milk floats....good grief. Lets not even go near the mining...

    We cant even transport green electricity from the north to the south (Nowhere near enough Pylons) to charge the bloody things, let alone get that power from a sub station to the car...

    I have a Hybrid now, its great, I dont have to plug it in!!
    And in the name of religion, For the hate in our soul
    For the blind and the sick in the heart, War has taken its toll
    If only you could feel the tears and pain, In the eyes of the world.
    Glover/Blackmore "The Eyes of the World"

  4. #4
    Established TDF Member jamesp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Evans View Post
    Well I can tell you one thing, having hobbies like that isn't going to save the planet, doesn't matter if its petrol or electric, it shouldn't have been made in the first place... Needless gratuitous entertainment for the obviously over entitled I'd say One had better get off Ones high horse with hobbies like that

    Lithium ion powered milk floats....good grief. Lets not even go near the mining...

    We cant even transport green electricity from the north to the south (Nowhere near enough Pylons) to charge the bloody things, let alone get that power from a sub station to the car...

    I have a Hybrid now, its great, I dont have to plug it in!!
    I had a hybrid diesel, bad on diesel (35mpg), bad on EV (30 miles range only): 0-60mph, 6.9 seconds.
    That didn`t get old.
    Two tonne of volvo estate with a wardrobe sized roofbox on top out dragging "pop pop" exhaust cars from the lights.

  5. #5
    Nicotine, valium, vicodin... notdeadyet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    OK so we should all be diving in the glorious weather
    I hate diving in hot weather, I deliberately avoid it.

    What do people think about actual cars? (FWIW I am sticking with our diesel for the time being)

    Me, I say the writing is on the wall.
    For domestic vehicles the writing is definitely on the wall. For freight, who knows?

    I have no idea what the future is going to bring but EV's seem incredibly problematic on so many fronts. I can't see them, as they stand at the moment, being more than a stop gap until something else happens. I have no interest in technology so wouldn't even know where to make a guess at what that something else is. And it also probably means that the stop-gap will be what we end up wedded to for far longer than we should be.

    What worries me is the way we are going to go about transitioning. As you point out, EV's are a privilege of the affluent even on the second hand market. Tolls, taxes and ULEZ schemes are going to hurt the people that can afford it the least and can't afford to buy their way out of it with a new car. I'm lucky to have a job I can do from home, I very rarely drive during the week now. Hybrid/remote working is now a very common demand from staff in white collar jobs. But you can't stack shelves or wipe old people's arses from home, a huge section of society needs to commute and a lot of them are on very low pay and/or unsocial hours.

    I don't really care what technology makes the wheels turn. What concerns me is that the transition can be done fairly and at the moment it doesn't look like that is going to happen. Our public transport is too shit and too expensive to be a viable alternative to giving up a cheap car and nothing seems to be on the horizon for that to change. An EV is a huge outlay and there's next to no real second hand market yet. Plus the question of longevity as a used purchase. A lot of cars you can buy with 100k on the clock and be reasonably confident you'll get another 100k out of it. Have EV's seen enough service to be confident of that? Then there is practicality. At the minute home charging only works if you have a driveway or dedicated parking bay, again that favours the affluent until some serious investment in infrastructure.

    I don't know what the answer is but the way things are right now (and the outlook for the near future) looks like if you can afford it then changing how you travel is an inconvenience at worst. If you can't afford it then you are going to be made to hurt. A lot. It doesn't seem fair, we're demonising those that can do the least about it, we're hurting the people that can least afford it and we're creating a huge resistance towards any kind of change. I don't see much will to do things differently though.
    Caliph Hamish Aw-Michty Ay-Ya-Bastard, Spiritual leader of Scottish State in England

  6. #6
    Last of the Mohicans gobfish1's Avatar
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    I was watching a guy on utube
    With a new 60k van that did 130 miles on a full charge on a good day .
    He was up a 5am because his van would need a 2nd charge just to get him to the work place . So out at 5.30am home at 9.50 pm . Charge cost on moter way expensive.
    Plus he spent another 20 each way having coffee and food to pass the time when on charge. Lol
    Sorry I watched the video.
    This will be the same guy that turns up at your home wanting 450 to change a light fitting .
    Last edited by gobfish1; 03-06-2023 at 05:50 PM.
    None diver as of 2018.

  7. #7
    Team Starburst Ian@1904's Avatar
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    Until the technology improves I will keep my diesel car. I make several long distance journeys each year, see dive reports. The stoppage time for charging would make the trips a joke.

  8. #8
    Cheeky Monkey... Paul Evans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gobfish1 View Post
    I was watching a guy on utube
    With a new 60k van that did 130 miles on a full charge on a good day .
    He was up a 5am because his van would need a 2nd charge just to get him to the work place . So out at 5.30am home at 9.50 pm . Charge cost on moter way experience.
    Plus the he spent another 20 each way having have coffee and food to pass the time when on charge. Lol
    Sorry I watched the video
    I was introduced to an electric VW van a few weeks ago, the guy who owned was explaining how you cant over charge it (Only 80% recommended) and must not let it go to low, 20% must be left in the batts....

    I know VW have history for being cheating bastards but claiming a mileage that's actually 40% less in real life!!!
    And in the name of religion, For the hate in our soul
    For the blind and the sick in the heart, War has taken its toll
    If only you could feel the tears and pain, In the eyes of the world.
    Glover/Blackmore "The Eyes of the World"

  9. #9
    Last of the Mohicans gobfish1's Avatar
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    And if you over charge and run flat often and you have a battery problem your dealership will say sorry it's your problem as you void the Warranty as some owners have found out .
    None diver as of 2018.

  10. #10
    Tofu eating wokerato Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesp View Post
    Bosch gave up developing new diesel engine systems about five years ago.

    What does the petrol bike weigh, 80kgs?
    An extra 5kgs (~6%) on what is basically a stripped down competition vehicle is not a high point of the specification, Flat instant torque curve would be, but that would be interesting to see the numbers next to the petrol bike.
    The petrol bike is about 65Kg (dry) to about 70Kg for the electric. The EM is very much at the early adopter end of the market and leccy bikes are only going to get better and better.

    The power output is not so much the issue as the lack of run on you get with a flywheel. Let go the throttle and the bike stops. It takes a while to get your head round it and is (at first) counter intuative. Kids these days are learning on leccy and probably will ride better with that as a follow on. The main kids bike is the Oset (https://osetbikes.com/gb) and bloody good they are too. Four of them running about at the practice ground this afternoon and nippers with big grins on their faces. My grizzle is the back brake is where the clutch should be like on a push bike (push bike brakes fitted). That aside they are the dogs knackers.

    Quote Originally Posted by gobfish1 View Post
    And if you over charge and run flat often and you have a battery problem your dealership will say sorry it's your problem as you void the Warranty as some owners have found out .
    One of my customers was asked to fit a tow bar to a Transit electric. He was not sure if it could tow legally but the guy sent him a photo of the plates and the GVW was more than the vehicle, so the difference was the legal amount it could tow. My customer is a bit anal so he had rung the Ford main agent to be 100% sure of the facts. The main agent confirmed the van could tow legally but if you tow anything with it you invalidate the van's warranty in respect of the drive train.
    There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and Tory corruption and I am not sure about the universe.
    With apologies to Albert Einstein.


 
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