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  1. #61
    Nicotine, valium, vicodin... notdeadyet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    You would think so. 1985 would have been a good time to do it.

    In fairness to BSAC it is one of the best one star training systems for showing the new divers a primary donate. While PADI insist on a 3 foot pipe superglued to the side of your head BSAC has a more open approach. New divers are taught to take the AAS and the donating diver indicates where it is (in my gob). Might take all of 40 seconds to actually demonstrate it or (I agree with you Stuart) give it the full 5 minutes in the pool if you really want to.

    Even a diplodocus could do it.
    I'm assuming the "complexity for new divers" is for divers trained "traditionally" now faced with being buddied with someone who hog loops rather than new divers adopting hog looping for themselves? It really seems like a non-issue. Make a familiarisation something everyone needs to do to remain current. I've encountered plenty of experienced divers who had never seen a hog looped set until the point I'd dived with them, it's still not a universal. Run a session every couple of months, everyone in the branch gets the stamp in the book to say they've had it explained and had a go at receiving a reg.

    It seems very counterproductive to finally allow something that has been around for maybe 30 years (with a fairly impeccable safety record) to then come up with a load of whataboutisms to stymie its adoption. It's a simple fix.
    Caliph Hamish Aw-Michty Ay-Ya-Bastard, Spiritual leader of Scottish State in England

  2. #62
    Happy atheist, despite the "evidence"...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Carr View Post
    I think that people who who spout 3 have forgotten how difficult it can be for new divers. Training new divers how to cope with PD and a hog-looped long hose is much too complicated. I'm teaching an Ocean Diver Course at the moment and I certainly wouldn't want to be trying to teach tem PD.

    I remember one occasion when we had some trainees up at Stoney but one of the instructors failed to turn up. Our DO at the time was there not to instruct but to test out his equipment and offered to help. He did the buddy check with the trainees and their eyes glazed over when he tried to explain his double bladder wing with OPH, twin set and long hose. I overheard one of the trainees say afterwards that they perhaps should have done PADI training since they didn't bother with such complex equipment.

    Most divers are only going to be doing sub 30m single cylinder recreational diving and for the minority to try and force advanced techniques on to them is frankly selfish. When divers get to Sports Diver level it is reasonable to expect them to have the skills and confidence to cope with PD but not at Ocean Diver level.
    I'm in the "I can't believe this hooey" camp.

    I used to teach PADI and would use a Hog set up.

    My brief was "If you need air, signal to me and I will give you the working regulator from my mouth. Put it in yours, purge it and start breathing. I will then start breathing from this one that hangs from my necklace."

    Nobody ever found that a hard concept to deal with; I can only assume that your DO overcomplicated the procedure beyond all reason.

    I've written this before: to ensure compliance with PADI regs I kept a folding snorkel in a suit pocket. PADI's super-duper-head-honchos were often down in Portland teaching Open Water to their office staff, so I asked about my conguration. I was assured it was 100% compliant and that PADI had no problem whatsoever with me teaching in it.
    Happy to be a woke* feminist SJ(K)W snowflake in a godless universe, no matter what some experts think. And Braun was a twat who's not missed. At all.

    * Had to add woke; couldn't resist.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkP View Post
    I'm in the "I can't believe this hooey" camp....... quite a big snipped
    + 1. I teach primary donate (with a standard normal + octo hose configuration) and alternate/octo donate routinely, as does our entire school. We have done so for years (primary donate is the SSI standard response to OOA). In that time, no one has ever found it too complicated. The closest it gets is in the early days when people like to hold regs and run short of hands, or use thewrong hands and get in a muddle. After a few sessions and some practice, it's fine.
    The views expressed are my own, worth what you've paid for them, are not on behalf of anyone else and not those of any company I work for etc.

  4. #64
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    The issue is not one of an OD trainee being able to cope with a primary donate but the fact that you would be introducing two different methods of dealing with an OOG situation at such an early stage of training. I believe that at that level, you need to keep things as simple as possible and reduce task loading to the minimum. Once the trainees have reached a reasonable level of confidence with the basic skills, then it is sensible to introduce them to more complex skills.

    As a percentage, how many divers worldwide use a long hose/PD? I've only ever seen them used in the UK and even here, relatively infrequently and as a proportion of the UK diving population it is relatively small. I can see the advantage of PD for deep mixed gas diving but I'm less convinced of the advantages in ordinary recreational single cylinder diving.

    I started diving long before AS appeared and an OOG situation was handled by sharing a single DV. Things have changed for the better since then.

  5. #65
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Carr View Post
    The issue is not one of an OD trainee being able to cope with a primary donate but the fact that you would be introducing two different methods of dealing with an OOG situation at such an early stage of training. I believe that at that level, you need to keep things as simple as possible and reduce task loading to the minimum. Once the trainees have reached a reasonable level of confidence with the basic skills, then it is sensible to introduce them to more complex skills.....
    The purpose of basic one star training is (surely?) to equip a person with enough knowledge to dive safely? In an out of gas situation the agreed (BSAC) proceedure is to ask/take the AAS from your buddy. On my IFC we were taught the "starfish" technique. There was general consensus that in real life you would almost certainly be pro-active in giving the AAS to the diver rather than waiting around for them to physically take the octo.

    Over the years I have seen all manner of shit octopus set ups. Mickey mouse clips and velcro bollocks. Infant level arguments about which side the hose comes out the 1st stage. Idiotic twaddle about what colour the hose/2nd should be. All sorts of nonsense. In the final analysis what the OOG diver wants and needs is a working reg and pronto. Not a shitty old reg full of sand and spiders. In PADI there is the divers' triangle nonsense. The octo should be located in that triangle. But it is common to see then velcroed into a stab pocket and the hose bent round on itself.

    IMPO this shows the diver with the octo is not really bothered about his/her buddy. Often they reinforce that with a pony tank for themselves.

    In the swimming pool with the other IFC trainees and our NI it was all easy and the "casualty" easily took the octo from the donating diver. Everyone there had modified their rig for the IFC and none of us dive like that in the real world. In the "real" world I would be diving a long hose no matter what; single tank or twins. If diving with a new diver I am going to quickly explain the drill.

    If I was diving with a new OD or a person still in training my first thought is to look after them. If - even for a moment - I think they need gas I can quickly offer up a working 2nd stage. The additional hose length lets me better manage the situation. If my buddy sorts out the issue I can quickly re-stow the hose and we can continue with the dive. If teaching then you gear match. As an instructor you are demonstrating the student's equipment, not there to show off your own preference/crankiness, whether that is a Buddy Commando and a pony or a HOG set up. Your role at that stage is to show the student how their kit works, not yours.

    My goal - if educating - is to equip that new diver with enough knowledge to make a safe dive whether with me or another thoughtful person, or with the pony kitted, spider filled, mickey mouse clipped, yellow hosed, left-hand octopus diver.

    So, with all due respect to everyone concerned, the "correct" way to deal with OOG is to take the other diver's AAS. Ideally s/he will offer it. If s/he is any good they have already spotted your bother and are offering the AAS to save time and give you confidence. If they are not so good then you take it. That is the thinking I was taught on my IFC. IIRC it was called "grab" (it is a long time ago - not 100% on that one).

    Primary donate is a system where the primary is given to the OOG diver. We are trained in case it is just grabbed. Shit happens after all. The necklaced backup is right where you need it and the OOG diver now has a working reg, free of sand or spiders. The resistance to it (PD) was - IMHO - a fear that a 'conventionally rigged' diver would have their primary grabbed and they themselves would have to arse about trying to unzip their shitty old spider filled cracked octopus and horror of horrors breathe the thing themselves.

    BSAC are right to cover this important subject and should, in my mind, introduce the concept and the debate as soon as possible - ideally in OD training. BSAC teaches OD to grab the AAS. This is much more compatible with HOG than with octopus configurations.

    That is how it appears to me anyway.
    We give 350m a week to the EU. Let's give it to Dido Harding instead.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Carr View Post
    The issue is not one of an OD trainee being able to cope with a primary donate but the fact that you would be introducing two different methods of dealing with an OOG situation at such an early stage of training. I believe that at that level, you need to keep things as simple as possible and reduce task loading to the minimum. Once the trainees have reached a reasonable level of confidence with the basic skills, then it is sensible to introduce them to more complex skills.

    As a percentage, how many divers worldwide use a long hose/PD? I've only ever seen them used in the UK and even here, relatively infrequently and as a proportion of the UK diving population it is relatively small. I can see the advantage of PD for deep mixed gas diving but I'm less convinced of the advantages in ordinary recreational single cylinder diving.

    I started diving long before AS appeared and an OOG situation was handled by sharing a single DV. Things have changed for the better since then.
    A couple of thoughts for you Alan. 1) you don't need a long hose to PD. It works just as well with a standard hose. 2) PD is as simple as it gets for the OOA diver - take the reg you're given, put it in your mouth, breathe. Far simpler than having to rummage around and find someone's alternate, try to work out how the thing is attached (as they might have forgotten to tell you how it works), get it deployed, clear it, then breathe. YMMV. Oh and SSI teach PD as the standard response to OOA - that means every SSI-qualified diver will have learned it that way. It's not just GUE.
    The views expressed are my own, worth what you've paid for them, are not on behalf of anyone else and not those of any company I work for etc.

  7. #67
    Established TDF Member Steve Clark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jturner View Post
    A couple of thoughts for you Alan. 1) you don't need a long hose to PD. It works just as well with a standard hose. 2) PD is as simple as it gets for the OOA diver - take the reg you're given, put it in your mouth, breathe. Far simpler than having to rummage around and find someone's alternate, try to work out how the thing is attached (as they might have forgotten to tell you how it works), get it deployed, clear it, then breathe. YMMV. Oh and SSI teach PD as the standard response to OOA - that means every SSI-qualified diver will have learned it that way. It's not just GUE.
    Before it all kicked off, I actually did an IFC with an old-school BSAC beard & sandals guy who just dived 1 reg and an auto-air thing on his BC. He had to stop and re-configure himself before we did any AAS drills.

  8. #68
    Nicotine, valium, vicodin... notdeadyet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    IMPO this shows the diver with the octo is not really bothered about his/her buddy. Often they reinforce that with a pony tank for themselves.
    That was the original point made by Bill Main himself when talking about the hogarthian system. I can't recall the exact quote but it went along the lines of: "how would you feel about diving with someone who by their very own kit setup is saying they are not willing to help you?".

    The reality is you may well be diving with someone who is calm and collected and able to do the "right" thing. Or you have an equal or better chance that that person is going to try to kill you to get something to breathe for himself by taking the reg he can see rather than trying to figure out the shit show hanging off your chest.

    To some extent training becomes irrelevant. Human nature will make the choice for you. I don't see any point in training for ideal situations. And it isn't just the OOA diver who is at risk, there is a very good chance the donor is going to be in a fairly bad situation. I will get your reg out of your mouth if I need it. Inventing reasons to not acknowledge that the primary reg is going to be taken does a disservice to everyone. It's something that is incredibly simple to teach, takes next to no time and could save both divers involved. Sounds damn near irresponsible to pretend that your divers are not capable of learning.

    To quote another great man, plans are great until you get punched in the face.
    Caliph Hamish Aw-Michty Ay-Ya-Bastard, Spiritual leader of Scottish State in England

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Clark View Post
    Before it all kicked off, I actually did an IFC with an old-school BSAC beard & sandals guy who just dived 1 reg and an auto-air thing on his BC. He had to stop and re-configure himself before we did any AAS drills.
    I did the ITC (believe it morphed into the IFC) with 1 second stage and a scubapro air 2. No one said a thing. Maybe because octopus was not part of the course and buddy breathing was the thing. Didn’t take long instructing in open water to get a octopus. Even if it needed a T piece and adaptor. Maybe I need a beard and sandals?


 
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