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  1. #31
    Established TDF Member Barrygoss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron MacRae View Post
    I'm not sure that's true.

    Who oversees/QAs the instructors? The DO.
    Yep, the NDO oversees BSAC instruction quality, this is delegated to DO’s of the club. Otherwise the instructors are stand alone in the club.

    The lawyers would go for the DO, especially when they didn’t know the instructor signing off the lesson. Imagine how that would play out. You have no knowledge of joe bloggs, yet you took their word the training was conducted correctly?

    B
    Rebreathers are like women; they pretend to love you, whilst taking all your money and trying to kill you.

  2. #32
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barrygoss View Post
    Yep, the NDO oversees BSAC instruction quality, this is delegated to DO’s of the club. Otherwise the instructors are stand alone in the club.

    The lawyers would go for the DO, especially when they didn’t know the instructor signing off the lesson. Imagine how that would play out. You have no knowledge of joe bloggs, yet you took their word the training was conducted correctly?

    B
    Negligence is a complex subject. The first thing to establish in the debate is what outcome is under discussion? If - in your example - the DO has accepted on trust that the training is competent but without knowledge of the training person and or the actual training that took place then the question of what - if any - negligence has that person displayed? Does the DO handbook require that the DO actually supervises the training in person? IIRC it does not. Does the DO have prior knowledge that the ITC and OWIC courses have a history of producing sub-standard intructors such that a "reasonable" person might conclude that an instructor needs to be tested prior to being allowed to teach?

    Personally I feel that there is an assumption that the branch committee are being held up to account because they have the skills and experience to oversee the activity when in fact they are simply elected club memmbers who do not have such ability either as a requirement or in many cases in fact.

    Sadly what is needed is a test case to establish a precident. Such a case requires someone gets hurt and sued so no-one really wants that.
    We give £350m a week to the EU. Let's give it to Dido Harding instead.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barrygoss View Post

    The lawyers would go for the DO, especially when they didn’t know the instructor signing off the lesson. Imagine how that would play out. You have no knowledge of joe bloggs, yet you took their word the training was conducted correctly?
    Utterly ridiculous - where does this lead, where everything has been done by someone you know personally? The whole point of a training agency is that you can take the word of someone that you don't know personally ...

  4. #34
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by graham_hk View Post
    Utterly ridiculous - where does this lead, where everything has been done by someone you know personally? ...
    It leads to a club where the clique are running it and it is their little empire. I have seen this in most clubs that I have had anything to do with. At one level it is perfectly understandable because "everyone" knows of an example of something that has not been done correctly. At the same time it is (well IMPO anyway) an Achilles heel for the club system of diver training and diving generally. To be honest I don't know what the answer is (or if there is one).
    We give £350m a week to the EU. Let's give it to Dido Harding instead.

  5. #35
    Established TDF Member steelemonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by graham_hk View Post
    Utterly ridiculous - where does this lead, where everything has been done by someone you know personally? The whole point of a training agency is that you can take the word of someone that you don't know personally ...
    I can see the point Graham is making. The company I work for are registered with various health and safety groups. CHAS, Achilles, Safe contractor etc.
    Our clients accept the accreditation of these groups without knowing the assessors personally.
    Paul.
    If God had meant us to breathe underwater, he would have given us larger bank balances.
    Human beings were invented by water as a means of moving itself from one place to another.

  6. #36
    Established TDF Member Barrygoss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by graham_hk View Post
    Utterly ridiculous - where does this lead, where everything has been done by someone you know personally? The whole point of a training agency is that you can take the word of someone that you don't know personally ...
    I completely understand your point and agree, in a system with regular QA of instructors

    B
    Rebreathers are like women; they pretend to love you, whilst taking all your money and trying to kill you.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barrygoss View Post
    I completely understand your point and agree, in a system with regular QA of instructors

    B
    That only leaves you with GUE (only my experience - I'd happily be proved wrong)

  8. #38
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by graham_hk View Post
    That only leaves you with GUE (only my experience - I'd happily be proved wrong)
    The "problem" if it is one is that you get what you pay for. GUE R1 at nearly a grand and PADI OW at 400 quid. Most potential divers lack the knowledge to fully understand how and why training differs between all the agencies offering a one star course.

    I really like GUE but personally find that the unanimity required is too restrictive for me. I totally understand it for teams where you are in a high risk situation like full on cave diving. With my covid depleted recent dive record I would also be looking at some expensive retraining. For someone that wants a holiday dive cert and will probably be doing guided dives in warm clear water for ever the cost is even more of an issue.

    The BSAC marketing ploy of pretending training is "free" is often seen as a recruitment tool and pushed hard. I am not surprised when a lot of BSAC members are a bit suspicious of the QC. I personally have witnessed bad practice.
    We give £350m a week to the EU. Let's give it to Dido Harding instead.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    I personally have witnessed bad practice.
    You and me both: -

    I worked against me (I wanted my Advanced Diver so I could do my Club Instructor - the then DO [who was the only Advanced Diver in the Branch] stalled as he didn't want another CI challenging him...)

    And for me - I was a DO with a Trainee Sports Diver who refused to dive deeper than ten metres except with the right Dive Leader - on their depth progression dive...

  10. #40
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    My son, who has a Law degree and works for a Law School (he runs their customer service and sales team) discussed this with one of their tutors, a retired QC. His view was that the only grounds that an instructor or DO could be prosecuted Under English Law was for negligence or misconduct, such as deliberately breaching safe diving guidelines.

    In terms of instructors, providing the instructor followed the guidelines of the agency involved at the time certification was carried out, then no offence has been committed. If however the instructor signs something off without having carried out the required training then that is misconduct. The instructor also cannot be held responsible for the conduct of a diver after he has qualified. The QC likened it to a Driving Instructor or Examiner. A driving test only ascertains that the candidate meets the standards on the day of the test, not that they will always meet that standard.

    However, for official club dives, the rules are rather different. The Club has the legal duty of care to ensure that designated safe diving practices are followed. Looking at the BSAC Safe Diving Practices, there appear to be three key points

    1. All offical club dives must have a designated dive manager
    2. Logsheets must be kept
    3. No-one must be allowed to dive beyond their certified qualification level.

    I believe that these are conditions of the BSAC insurance as well. I had an argument with one of the AD's in our club who said that the dives that he organises were going to be offical club dives regardless of what I as DO said but that he wasn't prepared to be bothered with all this bureaucratic bullshit. I said that there was no way that I was going to be responsible for his dive trips. The club cannot be held responsible for dive trips that club members run as individuals without consulting the DO.

    The conduct of instructors is the responsibility of BSAC through the NDO, and this is delegated to branch DO's to ensure the quality of training carried out within their Branch. However, BSAC allows instructors not within the Branch to sign off lessons and Branch DO's cannot refuse to sign off lessons done by qualified instructors or qualifications awarded by other Branches or Schools. Therefore the branch DO cannot be held responsible for the quality of their lessons.

    The issue of legal duty of care is a very interesting one.


 
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