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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by iain/hsm View Post
    Steve I am in agreement with you on your earlier post that the list on face value is a list by and large of dead divers.

    Some of which I knew, some of which were customers, some of which were friends. Others on the list I didnít know other than they were forum members some died on deep dives some forum members died in water shallow enough you could stand up in. None the less all are now dead.

    Now the prevailing common denominator in all these deaths to me is the single rebreather brand that they were all wearing at the point of death.

    Now add that in the last few years since the list was published the "makers and shakers" in the scuba diving industry together with the clowns and guruís started a program to avoid naming of the diver and the make and model of the rebreather to the point that some may think it is to protect a certain UK brand.

    In addition the extent that we even have the likes of Dr Fock and Dr Simon Mitchell pushing this swing in an agenda driven anti list by those in the industry that benefit most from having new customers unaware of the risks and who continue to project this "donít tell, donít inform" mantra but your OK to criticize the list.

    On the basic purely of those folk I knew now dead and to those on the forum I dont the one aspect every diver on a YBOD needs to ask themselves is which number on the list will they take up and will it be as an unkown diver on an unknown rebreather. Just a thought.

    Just to add for those reading number five hundred and eighty five on the list is available should anyone wish to avail themselves of a final little heading in the history of amatuer sports diving, I should add going out unknown is also quite acceptable and you would be doing the scuba guru's clan quite a favour.
    Just wondering have you any other data to back up your speculation/conspiracy theories other than this disproven list?


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  2. #122
    Established TDF Member Doomanic's Avatar
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    Iím wondering how much his retainer is from OSÖ
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    Seriously, forget about sidemount - it's bollocks.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doomanic View Post
    Iím wondering how much his retainer is from OSÖ
    This is offensive (and wildly incorrect) even by your standards.

    Nah just kidding LOL
    Heck what makes you think I'm on a retainer. Like many other folk I like the principle of informed choice.
    I like the idea of Alex's list with the make and model of equipment used. Age and experience is helpful
    Cause of death also helpful. Im also happy with the one aspect some others dont like namley the cause opinion.
    I also like Steve's position that it's just a list of dead divers useful in lts own right.

    What I dont like is the number of divers on that list that I knew. And the stories entailed up to the point of death.

    What I reaaly dont like is members claiming a single line item on the list to be wrong while not being prepared to state clearly
    the fault. That is a spineless and pathetic example of a fellow diver who knows perfectly well, corrected information is more
    important than claiming fault while not being prepared to allow correction.

    That and the other servile sycophants I guess.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by simon mitchell View Post
    This is offensive (and wildly incorrect) even by your standards.

    It is worth reflecting on a bit of history about the involvement of the wider scientific community in ADW9's list, because Andrew Fock and I were/are certainly not alone. You will note the passage of text on the first page of Andrews scientific journal article:

    "In early 2008 the Divers Alert Network (DAN) USA in conjunction with Duke University conducted a technical diving conference where a number of prominent members of the diving industry were invited to discuss this database and its consequences".

    I was at that meeting along with virtually every prominent member of the diving medicine community who had an interest in diving epidemiology, and many prominent rebreather divers. There was enormous / unfettered enthusiasm for both Alex (who was also there) and the promise of his database initiative, which he initially presented as a list without the root cause determinations. There was unanimous agreement to get behind the database initiative and the plan was for Alex to populate the cause columns on the basis of available information and for the group to adjudicate these / come to a consensus. This would also be the model going forward as new deaths occurred. RIGHT THERE Alex had the opportunity to develop the list into a massively useful tool and maintain the endorsement of the scientific community on a perpetual basis. However, when he put his interpretations in, the group was blindsided by the lack of rigour in his determinations and a blindingly obvious agenda to portray one particular manufacturer as an irresponsible villain. We were even more surprised when he essentially refused to act on feedback on any of his determinations. Within a year the various experts had decided they did not want to have anything to do with him, and the group dissolved leaving Alex and a few Russians running the list.

    In order to write his paper, Andrew convened his own group of experts who evaluated and corrected the list - as described in his paper.

    So, my "anti-list agenda" as you put it is based entirely on an experience where a broad group of undisputed experts became involved, and then dropped out because ADW9 demonstrated that he had no interest in objectivity or academic rigour, and was only interested in the group if they were prepared to endorse his own opinions. If you think that is an inappropriate basis for my "agenda" then I can't help you.

    Simon M
    This is offensive (and wildly incorrect) even by your standards.

    But even that pales into insignificance the way the list has been manipulated by those in powerful positions in the recreational diving industy.
    One by way of your example claims in the first page of some dubious science study makes claim of faults corrected while at the same time giving no explanation as to the specific incident. That my friend is the start of a work of deception.
    And that is the offense even by your standards.

    But for background lets open this up as to the "players" involved in the game when pseudoscience became the control medium for amatuer sports divers. While we wait still for the response as to these "inaccuracies" that were corrected on the list, where known

    http://media.dan.org/RF3_web.pdf

    Note: There are also a number of errors in the procedings above, all minor stuff and no one died on them.

    But for the benifit of others these porceding are the basis of the play, it lays out the land, the players and the goal.

    "But inaccuracies were corrected where known" I guess.............Yeah right.
    Last edited by iain/hsm; 15-09-2021 at 03:20 PM.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad_Horn View Post
    ... a friendly chat.

    BTW thank you for drawing attention to Gas Density being a concern for rebreather divers. As the ALVBOV is the only BOV on the market CE certified for use to 100m in both OC and CC modes, with the lowest known WOB for both OC and CC modes, you have helped sell a number of units. Likewise the fact that any diver swapping to an Open Safety rebreather will lower their WOB compared to any other rebreather on the market and automatically reduce their Gas Density; all other variables remaining equal.
    Lol physics phail.
    Probably find a pdf somewhere explaining how gas density works

    Not much friendliness here towards ambulance chasers

  6. #126
    Nicotine, valium, vicodin... notdeadyet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iain/hsm View Post
    That is a spineless and pathetic example of a fellow diver who knows perfectly well, corrected information is more
    important than claiming fault while not being prepared to allow correction.
    No it isn't spineless. No-one is under any obligation to help someone write their marketing materials no matter how much they dress it up as research. Look at the difference with how people engaged with something like DISMS compared to this. If Deas is making a goat shagging of his project that's his business. He's approached it without impartiality and without the rigour that something like this needs. The behaviour of himself and those involved directly influenced how divers view the whole shit show. It's not the fault of other divers that other divers view him as someone not worth co-operating with.
    Caliph Hamish Aw-Michty Ay-Ya-Bastard, Spiritual leader of Scottish State in England

  7. #127
    Established TDF Member Paulo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WFO View Post
    Lol physics phail.
    Probably find a pdf somewhere explaining how gas density works

    Not much friendliness here towards ambulance chasers
    I saw that too and wondered what magic an Open Safety unit had in it that it managed to defy the laws of physics
    JJ wanker

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by iain/hsm View Post
    . Like many other folk I like the principle of informed choice.
    I like the idea of Alex's list with the make and model of equipment used. Age and experience is helpful
    Cause of death also helpful. Im also happy with the one aspect some others dont like namley the cause opinion:
    How can it be an informed opinion when the data has been proven to be wrong?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  9. #129
    Last of the Mohicans gobfish1's Avatar
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    None diver as of 2018.

  10. #130
    Last of the Mohicans gobfish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doomanic View Post
    I’m wondering how much his retainer is from OS…
    Lol He gets about the same as Martin Parker pays me .

    Ps
    Iain that last link isn't working for me .?
    Last edited by gobfish1; 15-09-2021 at 09:11 PM.
    None diver as of 2018.


 
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