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  1. #111
    #keepittea ebt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iain/hsm View Post
    Then make it now. Here is your opportunity, to make your correction.
    So the list is commonly stated to be biased, agenda driven and "corrections" have been ignored. Why on earth would anyone want to be associated with it in any way shape or form?
    Last edited by ebt; 14-09-2021 at 03:17 PM.

  2. #112
    Nicotine, valium, vicodin... notdeadyet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iain/hsm View Post
    So what. And yet in this case he was still dead, and still is dead and was in all probability dead all the time the rescue attempt was ongoing, and as a subject listing he will remain dead despite all protestations. The lising was and in all fairness still is accurate albeit for others still making a mountain out of this molehill. Not dead yet I guess.
    Then why not wait for the body to be found and useful information gathered? It wasn't known that he was dead, it wasn't known if he was on a rebreather and nothing was known of the circumstances. In most cave diving deaths the bodies are recovered very quickly, it served no purpose to list it at that stage with absolutely nothing known. If Deas wants the database to be taken seriously then it needs a serious amount of rigour in how things are reported.

    It's nothing but a sales brochure for a fantasy product under the pretence of "research".

    Beggars the question why some two decades later they still are top of that list.
    Because it's still the most common rebreather I would guess. Even with my rudimentary understanding of statistics, not having figures for dives done or man hours you can't really draw any conclusions.

    Then look deeper and a massive 8 of them are on unknown rebreathers
    Again, either you treat your data collection with rigour or you don't. There's enough rumour and assumption reported in the rest of the spreadsheet that they might as well stick a guess in.
    Caliph Hamish Aw-Michty Ay-Ya-Bastard, Spiritual leader of Scottish State in England

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by gobfish1 View Post
    Interesting to see the UK divers doing better than the rest of the world after them being at the top end of deaths for some years
    Steve I am in agreement with you on your earlier post that the list on face value is a list by and large of dead divers.

    Some of which I knew, some of which were customers, some of which were friends. Others on the list I didn’t know other than they were forum members some died on deep dives some forum members died in water shallow enough you could stand up in. None the less all are now dead.

    Now the prevailing common denominator in all these deaths to me is the single rebreather brand that they were all wearing at the point of death.

    Now add that in the last few years since the list was published the "makers and shakers" in the scuba diving industry together with the clowns and guru’s started a program to avoid naming of the diver and the make and model of the rebreather to the point that some may think it is to protect a certain UK brand.

    In addition the extent that we even have the likes of Dr Fock and Dr Simon Mitchell pushing this swing in an agenda driven anti list by those in the industry that benefit most from having new customers unaware of the risks and who continue to project this "don’t tell, don’t inform" mantra but your OK to criticize the list.

    On the basic purely of those folk I knew now dead and to those on the forum I dont the one aspect every diver on a YBOD needs to ask themselves is which number on the list will they take up and will it be as an unkown diver on an unknown rebreather. Just a thought.

    Just to add for those reading number five hundred and eighty five on the list is available should anyone wish to avail themselves of a final little heading in the history of amatuer sports diving, I should add going out unknown is also quite acceptable and you would be doing the scuba guru's clan quite a favour.
    Last edited by iain/hsm; 14-09-2021 at 04:59 PM.

  4. #114
    Established TDF Member jamesp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iain/hsm View Post
    Steve I am in agreement with you on your earlier post that the list on face value is a list by and large of dead divers.

    Some of which I knew, some of which were customers, some of which were friends. Others on the list I didn’t know other than they were forum members some died on deep dives some forum members died in water shallow enough you could stand up in. None the less all are now dead.

    Now the prevailing common denominator in all these deaths to me is the single rebreather brand that they were all wearing at the point of death.

    Now add that in the last few years since the list was published the "makers and shakers" in the scuba diving industry together with the clowns and guru’s started a program to avoid naming of the diver and the make and model of the rebreather to the point that some may think it is to protect a certain UK brand.

    In addition the extent that we even have the likes of Dr Fock and Dr Simon Mitchell pushing this swing in an agenda driven anti list by those in the industry that benefit most from having new customers unaware of the risks and who continue to project this "don’t tell, don’t inform" mantra but your OK to criticize the list.

    On the basic purely of those folk I knew now dead and to those on the forum I dont the one aspect every diver on a YBOD needs to ask themselves is which number on the list will they take up and will it be as an unkown diver on an unknown rebreather. Just a thought.
    So how many YBODs are there out there?
    How many of the deep fake mythicals are out there?

    I suspect killing yourself with a rebreather that does not actually exist in real world would actually be a major achievement; hence the "safest rebreather" mantle is a shoe in for something only ever seen in photos(hopped).

    I wonder how many people have died of old age waiting for their mythical to appear, maybe you should roll that stat into the pdf.

  5. #115
    Last of the Mohicans gobfish1's Avatar
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    I'm with you on some of what your saying
    It's a long list with people I know like your self some m8s some people I met in passing others names from the past .
    I'm ok with the list just not adw9 ramblings.
    Only have one on the list that was involved with and adw9 completely missed the root cause. Dispite it being well documented.
    Observations were made notes taken photos taken every care was taken to keep and record all the information .we even educationed the police on how to handle the unit.
    Adw9 got a full report . Yet he's out come is totally at odds with what happened completely diver related unfortunately. So you can't really expect me to take his other apple tree plucking at face value. It's a dangerous game we play no matter the unit we use.
    And thanks to the ginger one is probably more dangerous than back before the court shoes came out .
    I get the feeling that alot of to days CCR diver think thay can buy themselves out of trouble . Rather then look at what thay are doing .

    The list is a good reminder all the same
    Just a shame are boy is a twat by nature.lol

    Edit
    I'd rather have almost guru and a name but
    Adw9 would pluck his poison apple from his tree . Ramble on and get it all wrong as usual.
    I'm out of CCR so Alex will have to save his apple for some other poor sod.
    Last edited by gobfish1; 15-09-2021 at 08:54 PM.
    None diver as of 2018.

  6. #116
    Established TDF Member MikeF's Avatar
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    Just read the latest list

    Line 584. "All rebreathers should include a means to instantaneously swap to a safe bailout gas via a Bail Out Valve. The IQSub Shrimp BOV fitted to this unit fails to meet EN250 CE certification due excessive WOB.

    A retainer strap on the facepiece is a CE requirement, but apparently not fitted to this unit. Mouthpiece retainer straps are strongly advised to minimise the risk of diver drowning when unconscious, as occurred in this instance.

    Unmanned testing (or the act of conducting formal accident analysis after previous fatalities on this unit) by the manufacturer will identify conditions within which the deceased would have been unsafe diving this unit; before even getting in the water."


    My understanding is the xCCR comes as standard with the iQsub BOV and the xCCR was recently CE marked so how did it get CE marked if the BOV fails to meet CE standards? or was it just CE'd in CC mode not OC mode?

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeF View Post
    Just read the latest list

    Line 584. "All rebreathers should include a means to instantaneously swap to a safe bailout gas via a Bail Out Valve. The IQSub Shrimp BOV fitted to this unit fails to meet EN250 CE certification due excessive WOB.

    A retainer strap on the facepiece is a CE requirement, but apparently not fitted to this unit. Mouthpiece retainer straps are strongly advised to minimise the risk of diver drowning when unconscious, as occurred in this instance.

    Unmanned testing (or the act of conducting formal accident analysis after previous fatalities on this unit) by the manufacturer will identify conditions within which the deceased would have been unsafe diving this unit; before even getting in the water."


    My understanding is the xCCR comes as standard with the iQsub BOV and the xCCR was recently CE marked so how did it get CE marked if the BOV fails to meet CE standards? or was it just CE'd in CC mode not OC mode?
    Because the BOV is integrated into the rebreather and the rebreather passed the relevant CE/EU Norm for rebreathers EN 14143.
    EN250 is the standard for OC regulators. And regarding the statement about the excessive WOB, it does not say the depth, the gas used and the rate of breathing.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  8. #118
    Established TDF Member MikeF's Avatar
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    so it was indeed CE'd as part of the CC rebreather WOB then. Has it actually been tested on OC against EN250? I seem to recall some PV loops being published on one of the forums when the shrimp first came out but couldn't find them again to see what the actual OC WOB was.

  9. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeF View Post
    so it was indeed CE'd as part of the CC rebreather WOB then. Has it actually been tested on OC against EN250? I seem to recall some PV loops being published on one of the forums when the shrimp first came out but couldn't find them again to see what the actual OC WOB was.
    I don't think you need a CE test to tell you that the two common (nonAP) BOVs breath like shite in OC mode ... no matter what numbers they have attached to them

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by iain/hsm View Post
    In addition the extent that we even have the likes of Dr Fock and Dr Simon Mitchell pushing this swing in an agenda driven anti list by those in the industry that benefit most from having new customers unaware of the risks and who continue to project this "don’t tell, don’t inform" mantra but your OK to criticize the list.
    This is offensive (and wildly incorrect) even by your standards.

    It is worth reflecting on a bit of history about the involvement of the wider scientific community in ADW9's list, because Andrew Fock and I were/are certainly not alone. You will note the passage of text on the first page of Andrews scientific journal article:

    "In early 2008 the Divers Alert Network (DAN) USA in conjunction with Duke University conducted a technical diving conference where a number of prominent members of the diving industry were invited to discuss this database and its consequences".

    I was at that meeting along with virtually every prominent member of the diving medicine community who had an interest in diving epidemiology, and many prominent rebreather divers. There was enormous / unfettered enthusiasm for both Alex (who was also there) and the promise of his database initiative, which he initially presented as a list without the root cause determinations. There was unanimous agreement to get behind the database initiative and the plan was for Alex to populate the cause columns on the basis of available information and for the group to adjudicate these / come to a consensus. This would also be the model going forward as new deaths occurred. RIGHT THERE Alex had the opportunity to develop the list into a massively useful tool and maintain the endorsement of the scientific community on a perpetual basis. However, when he put his interpretations in, the group was blindsided by the lack of rigour in his determinations and a blindingly obvious agenda to portray one particular manufacturer as an irresponsible villain. We were even more surprised when he essentially refused to act on feedback on any of his determinations. Within a year the various experts had decided they did not want to have anything to do with him, and the group dissolved leaving Alex and a few Russians running the list.

    In order to write his paper, Andrew convened his own group of experts who evaluated and corrected the list - as described in his paper.

    So, my "anti-list agenda" as you put it is based entirely on an experience where a broad group of undisputed experts became involved, and then dropped out because ADW9 demonstrated that he had no interest in objectivity or academic rigour, and was only interested in the group if they were prepared to endorse his own opinions. If you think that is an inappropriate basis for my "agenda" then I can't help you.

    Simon M
    Last edited by simon mitchell; 14-09-2021 at 08:27 PM.


 
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