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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    It is really difficult to produce good data and when you extrapolate the findings from a small sample to the empiric level you are going to be wrong to an extent. That's just how it is. I have done a lot of data manipulation and forecasting over the years and you have to accept a margin of error. I agree with Neil - the other factors will cause people to over or underestimate and to choose the lower or upper extremes to suit something other than the pursuit of the truth.

    There is no doubt that overfishing has destroyed several populations of fish to the point of commercial extinction. North Sea herring for example, as well as the tuna fishery that came with the migrating herring. As a kid I remember the blue shark fishing out of Looe and Trevor Housego in the news. Shark in general were often caught off the UK coastline. Dogfish, notably the Lesser Spotted were a nuisance and snaffled your bait before anything more tasty could get to it. Hardly see one now.

    Most people are totally ignorant of how commercial fishing works and the damage it does. Few understand how subsidised it is or how much the industry distorts politics. Anything that reverses that trend is welcome.
    I just caught sight of your posts, likes and received likes...all 8s and 9s until a moment ago - very soothing to look at (ignore the 3), calmed me right down after being reminded of the program!

  2. #42
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-J-J View Post
    I just caught sight of your posts, likes and received likes...all 8s and 9s until a moment ago - very soothing to look at (ignore the 3), calmed me right down after being reminded of the program!
    Ahh....

    It won't last. (like the marine ecosystem)
    We give £350m a week to the EU. Let's give it to Dido Harding instead.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    It is really difficult to produce good data and when you extrapolate the findings from a small sample to the empiric level you are going to be wrong to an extent. That's just how it is. I have done a lot of data manipulation and forecasting over the years and you have to accept a margin of error. I agree with Neil - the other factors will cause people to over or underestimate and to choose the lower or upper extremes to suit something other than the pursuit of the truth.

    There is no doubt that overfishing has destroyed several populations of fish to the point of commercial extinction. North Sea herring for example, as well as the tuna fishery that came with the migrating herring. As a kid I remember the blue shark fishing out of Looe and Trevor Housego in the news. Shark in general were often caught off the UK coastline. Dogfish, notably the Lesser Spotted were a nuisance and snaffled your bait before anything more tasty could get to it. Hardly see one now.

    Most people are totally ignorant of how commercial fishing works and the damage it does. Few understand how subsidised it is or how much the industry distorts politics. Anything that reverses that trend is welcome.
    Unfortunately this is complete codswallop (excuse the pun) - although I do agree with the sentiment.

    Fisheries science is well understood and produces excellent data. The issue getting selfish fishermen to follow the science (and getting funding due to political pressure by aforementioned morons). Never was there a group so short sighted and selfish that they can't listen and appreciate what (fisheries) scientists are telling them to protect their industry (fish stocks). The lack of brainpower is not ever going to be better illustrated than by Brexit - where the muppets though they could get exclusive fishing rights to domestic waters and thus were hard brexiters, but failed to make the next leap that with Brexit they'd have nowhere to sell their catch.

    Sadly I don't think its the fishermen per se ... just human nature

  4. #44
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by graham_hk View Post
    ...
    Fisheries science is well understood and produces excellent data. The issue getting selfish fishermen to follow the science...
    Agreed (not sure what you saw in my post to contradict that). The problem with the science is that there is massive pressure on the data collection groups to follow the requirements of the industry not best practice. The collected data may or may not be of good quality depending on the collection methodology. My understanding is that the collection methodology is inaccurate in enough cases that the margin of error is appreciable (see https://link.springer.com/article/10...152-014-0015-4. One of the really big issues is falsification of data and illegal fishing (see https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10244)

    The general public are not aware (or much interested) in the whole subject just so long as there is fish and chips on a Friday and fish fingers in Tescos.

    I also agree with you that the industry acts in a way that suggests it is moronic and short sighted, so much so that I feel such criticism is probably accurate. But to some extent the short sightedness is understandable if the fish stock is in major decline and soon to be commercially extinct - the most profit can be garnered by hastening the demise as there is no long term future. I also agree that the Brexit debacle suggest that many in the industry don't really understand much about the way their industry operates or what is in their best interests. But that is true of many other industries as well.

    perhaps, as you suggest, that is human nature, but I prefer to see it as the nature of capitalism rather than our species per se. It is something that could be overcome easily if anyone wanted to. Rather like climate change.
    Last edited by Chrisch; 13-04-2021 at 02:57 PM.
    We give £350m a week to the EU. Let's give it to Dido Harding instead.

  5. #45
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    The quota system is one of the most ridiculous ways of controlling catches. It simply ins'y possible to catch only the species that you have quota for and the rest gets thrown back as (dead) by-catch. The system that New Zealand introduced back in the 70's was far more effective - no fish zones. These were much easier to police - fishing boats faced instant fines for simply being inside the area which was monitored by radar. I was living there at the time they were introduced and there was huge opposition from the fisherman but the government stuck to their guns and implemented it. After a few years, the fishermen saw the benefit of it with sustainably increased catches.

    The lobster fishery off the Farne islands has also improved with the local fishermen having been persuaded to adopt 'notching' on breeding females, throwing back any caught with a notch in their tail, whether berried or not. Again, catches have proved sustainable year after year.

    It is possible to make fisheries sustainable if only the fisherman can be persauded to put the survival of long-term stocks over short-term greed but that is a big ask.

  6. #46
    TDF Member Alex Denny's Avatar
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    The documentary itself is a pretty brave attempt at addressing some serious issues, but it makes some pretty fatuous cheap and incorrect connections and has a few flat out falsehoods which undermine its message. Powerful viewing though.

    I had to watch My Octopus Teacher to cheer me up afterwards.

    Hand caught Orkney scallops are still delicious. I won’t eat tuna. *Most* whale species are recovering. Many inshore dolphin species in poorly policed waters are being destroyed. Shark finning is wildly destructive. Eating lionfish in the Atlantic tropics should probably be encouraged.

    Nothing is simple sadly.

  7. #47
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Carr View Post
    ... The system that New Zealand introduced back in the 70's was far more effective - no fish zones. These were much easier to police - fishing boats faced instant fines for simply being inside the area which was monitored by radar. ...
    This requires the political will to actually police and fine boats that break the no fish. The problem is not the quota system (although it is not the answer) the problem is capitalism. A fishing boat is a major investment and as such the owner and operator must get a significant return on the capital employed. This is just basic business and ROCE is a well established accounting ratio. If you are a big fishing company you will lobby the politicians to ensure that your right to increase your ROCE is not interfered with. As we can see from the last two or three governments and our nice Mr Cameron lobbying is effective and corrupt and endemic in the system. Now replicate that around the world and it is easy to understand why little if anything is done about illegal fishing and why most of the world's so called conservation areas are just bullshit greenwash to placate the gullible.

    Perhaps a person might be inclined to protest about this but the global trend is to outlaw that as well. In the UK this process is being ramped up by the current government. The powerful and wealthy also use the media and influencers to persuade that there is not a problem. The worthless sack of shit Piers Morgan berating an ER person because they owned a telly (ergo a hypocrite - Morgan is such an arsehole). Over time it slowly mounts up and people's views and opinions are shifted by this activity. It is called Public (or Press) relations and PR was the job of David Cameron prior to being the mafia boss.

    The marine ecosystem was pretty much a lost cause because very few people get to see it first hand. The insane destruction of the Australian barrier reef was insufficient to get the Australian population voting against the political right. The bush fires thankfully are having more effect but still the lies and bullshit are being shovelled onto the debate in industrial quantities.

    Climate and more widely the destruction of the ecosystem (terrestrial and marine) are thankfully now much further up the agenda as the cost becomes an issue to the owners of global capital. The current "culture war" was manufactured to set people against one another and to divert away from the destruction so the last drops can be squeezed out before the inevitable. The marine environment will lose as long as we see fish as an industrial product to be mined. There is no "sustainable".
    We give £350m a week to the EU. Let's give it to Dido Harding instead.

  8. #48
    Established TDF Member MikeF's Avatar
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    I like the approach in the phillipines. caught illegal fishing? we blow your boat up and sink it. The Norwegians go for escalating fines that start hefty and next time you lose your boat.

    UK seems to be a token fine and look the other way.

  9. #49
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeF View Post
    I like the approach in the phillipines. caught illegal fishing? we blow your boat up and sink it. The Norwegians go for escalating fines that start hefty and next time you lose your boat.

    UK seems to be a token fine and look the other way.
    There certainly is a case for harsh penalties. I wonder what would happen if the Philippines blew up one of those Chinese super trawlers?
    We give £350m a week to the EU. Let's give it to Dido Harding instead.


 
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