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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chimp View Post
    Really? Where have I said that? Is that not a bit of a jump?

    Asking questions and not immediately agreeing with all I read here doesn't mean I don't want the thread to exist. A bit of discussion and debate (without getting personal or making too many disparaging remarks) is what I hoped this forum was about.

    I don't care if the thread exists or not, I would just like to know WHY it exists. Why is a list (with no clear criteria for inclusion, or definition of what "Made in the UK" actually means) so important to you? You still haven't really answered that. You allude to some obvious meaning that everyone else except me gets (which is definitely not any of the previous guesses I've made, apparently), a few nudges and winks here and there, and some indignation that I'm even asking, but not a straight answer. Now I'm just getting the old "put some effort in" and "do what you want with the 'information'" chesnuts. Could I ask you to maybe "put a bit of effort in" and actually just write a wee post saying clearly why you think it's so important to have a list of 'British Made Divers Equipment'? Once I know why it's important to you I'll maybe decide it's important to me too? Once I know the reason maybe then I can decide what I want to do with the 'information'?

    I'm just intrigued why it's so important to you and what the underlying reason is if it isn't any of the guesses I've made?
    I, for one are pleased it exists.

    I do try to 'buy British' wherever possible, not made any easier buy the lack of or minimal info on the labeling.

    I hope that you have taken note of the wording on many USA made products informing the buyer that the goods are 'Proudly made in USA" - It would be nice to see similar on UK made products but would it work in this country with the attitude of so many who buy foreign over buying British for what? Snobbery?

  2. #122
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    I stand to be corrected, but don't Robin Hood Watersports (RoHo) manufacture in Yorkshire?

  3. #123
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F.P. View Post
    ...
    I hope that you have taken note of the wording on many USA made products informing the buyer that the goods are 'Proudly made in USA" - It would be nice to see similar on UK made products but would it work in this country with the attitude of so many who buy foreign over buying British for what? Snobbery?
    When I was a kid people bought British. As a motorcyclist I could point at brands like Triumph and Norton as the "best in the world". Such was the legacy of the UK being the "workshop of the world" and our skills and abilities in engineering and design. The 80s were the end game for UK cars and motorbikes and a combination of poor management and lack of government support culminated in the many labour disputes that finally destroyed those industries.

    I agree there is now some sort of weird snobbery and people boast about their "German" cars. Particularly it seems to me Audi and VW. VW has a cult following and the camper van is the one to buy apparently. Never mind that VW was founded by a rather unpleasant chap I have slagged these brands off as hard as I can after the fraud with the emission controls but to no avail. People still love them.

    Modern manufacturing is global and there is no such thing as a British or German product. Perhaps there never was, the raw materials come from round the world and things like steel are made from ore that you will not find in the UK so really products always were "global". So what exists is branding, marketing. Why are German cars good? They are not. VAG is good at branding. Why is Britain so bad? It is not, it just fails to understand management. Our most talented and skilled people do not want to go into management they want to go into banking. So we are good at stealing money but not making it.
    We give 350m a week to the EU. Let's give it to Dido Harding instead.

  4. #124
    Bananas! Chimp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F.P. View Post
    I, for one are pleased it exists.
    Well I are pleased that you are pleased

    Quote Originally Posted by F.P. View Post
    I do try to 'buy British' wherever possible, not made any easier buy the lack of or minimal info on the labeling.
    Unless you're talking about foodstuffs, the term 'buy British' is mostly a bit of a nonsense (as pointed out already by myself and others). Almost every manufactured item you can buy will have some component part or raw material originating from outside the UK. The term is basically a marketing ploy to appeal to the nostalgic, nationalistic tendencies of the easily manipulated. Convincing folk in the UK to 'buy British' is not what we need. We need to start looking outwards and convince people living in other countries to 'buy British'! And I don't mean financial products. Brexshit has, in my opinion, set us back a long way in doing this. But hey, at least we all get to have blue passports again right?

    Quote Originally Posted by F.P. View Post
    I hope that you have taken note of the wording on many USA made products informing the buyer that the goods are 'Proudly made in USA" - It would be nice to see similar on UK made products but would it work in this country with the attitude of so many who buy foreign over buying British for what? Snobbery?
    I'm not sure using a country that is so deeply split by nationalistic nutcases promising to Make America Great Again and encouraging large groups of brainwashed militias with assault rifles and a "hoo-raa, 'merica first" attitude is a great example?
    Look where the populist inward-looking nationalism, stoked by a pal of Farage, has taken the US of A!
    Do we really want to follow?
    Believe it or not, bananas do contain a small quantity of Musa Sapientum bananadine, which is a mild, short-lasting psychedelic

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    When I was a kid people bought British. As a motorcyclist I could point at brands like Triumph and Norton as the "best in the world". Such was the legacy of the UK being the "workshop of the world" and our skills and abilities in engineering and design. The 80s were the end game for UK cars and motorbikes and a combination of poor management and lack of government support culminated in the many labour disputes that finally destroyed those industries.

    I agree there is now some sort of weird snobbery and people boast about their "German" cars. Particularly it seems to me Audi and VW. VW has a cult following and the camper van is the one to buy apparently. Never mind that VW was founded by a rather unpleasant chap I have slagged these brands off as hard as I can after the fraud with the emission controls but to no avail. People still love them.

    Modern manufacturing is global and there is no such thing as a British or German product. Perhaps there never was, the raw materials come from round the world and things like steel are made from ore that you will not find in the UK so really products always were "global". So what exists is branding, marketing. Why are German cars good? They are not. VAG is good at branding. Why is Britain so bad? It is not, it just fails to understand management. Our most talented and skilled people do not want to go into management they want to go into banking. So we are good at stealing money but not making it.
    Seriously? 80's Brit bikes were non existent.
    60's Brit bikes were shit and fell in bits and leaked oil everywhere. As soon as Soichiro and co had invented the CB750 it was game over.

    Don't think anyone gave a shit about the emissions control scandal, since the workaround for the test gave much better mpg.

    VAG do make decent gear, I've got an old skoda here that's on 300k, made before too much of the unreliable electronic emissions control shit (that you seem to like?) was invented. It's going to die of rust eventually, but meanwhile it's saved hundreds of tonnes of CO2 by actually lasting more than 5 minutes. VW van fetishists are just odd, I've got no idea why they're so keen on transporters either.

    p.s As an engineer I wouldn't agree with your assessment of bankers as "talented and skilled" only as far as I would possibly describe a mosquito or a leech as "talented and skilled" at it's profession.

  6. #126
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WFO View Post
    Seriously? 80's Brit bikes were non existent.
    60's Brit bikes were shit and fell in bits and leaked oil everywhere. As soon as Soichiro and co had invented the CB750 it was game over.
    I am pretty much with you on that but the issue IMHO was more about R&D and build quality. What happened to the Triumph Trident? As a bike it was a decent enough machine but it never really got into production and up to enough numbers that it deserved. Why was our build quality poor? Maybe old machine tools and the like but really no excuse for it. As you point out the CB750 changed the game (it was slow and not very exciting but it did not piss oil over the drive...)

    I had a Suzuki 250 as a kid and it was shit. The metal was shit and the bike was shit. The handling was shit. It was a pretty low bar to jump over. I also had a (co-op) Bonneville and it was superb when it worked. The build quality was so crap I eventually sold it in cardboard boxes.

    It always seemed to me that the English just didn't give a shit about the product. The chrome peeled off because the prep was poor. Stuff like that which indicated a lack of care on the production line and a lack of decent management in the company. I grew up in Peterborough and saw the same thing with Perkins diesel engines. Once they were fitted in everything and now hardly exist at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by WFO View Post
    p.s As an engineer I wouldn't agree with your assessment of bankers as "talented and skilled" only as far as I would possibly describe a mosquito or a leech as "talented and skilled" at it's profession.
    Now you're just being nasty to the bankers. Somebody has to steal all that dosh off you or you would just waste it on a new Skoda.
    We give 350m a week to the EU. Let's give it to Dido Harding instead.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    I am pretty much with you on that but the issue IMHO was more about R&D and build quality. What happened to the Triumph Trident? As a bike it was a decent enough machine but it never really got into production and up to enough numbers that it deserved. Why was our build quality poor? Maybe old machine tools and the like but really no excuse for it. As you point out the CB750 changed the game (it was slow and not very exciting but it did not piss oil over the drive...)

    I had a Suzuki 250 as a kid and it was shit. The metal was shit and the bike was shit. The handling was shit. It was a pretty low bar to jump over. I also had a (co-op) Bonneville and it was superb when it worked. The build quality was so crap I eventually sold it in cardboard boxes.

    It always seemed to me that the English just didn't give a shit about the product. The chrome peeled off because the prep was poor. Stuff like that which indicated a lack of care on the production line and a lack of decent management in the company. I grew up in Peterborough and saw the same thing with Perkins diesel engines. Once they were fitted in everything and now hardly exist at all.
    CB750 maybe was a bit slow, but nobody was laughing when the likes of the GS1000 was coming out. They blew the brit shit out of the park. Still a strong motor by modern standards, I did a lot of fab work for putting a turbo on one 10yr ago for my mate.

    The X7 was still a lot more developed than the equivalent, they sold like hotcakes to suicidal 17 year olds on hire purchase. Yes they fell in bits, but they were 50kg lighter, strange that... "well engineered" to fulfill their market segment as compared to the Brit stuff, which was probably well designed by steam engine standards, and then let down in production maybe? Or were they shit outdated designs? Trident for example... same pushrod ancient shit better suited to a medium speed marine diesel, meanwhile the Japanese (and even Italians) were cracking on with overhead camshafts, desmodromic valves and 10,000rpm... 10krpm on anything british you'd probably have bits of gearbox up your arse and a piston up each nostril. Bit niche for me but each to their own...

    Triumph trident, basically the same engine that they'd been making forever? How many of the drawings, patterns etc were re used?* Economical maybe? False economy probably. Meanwhile the Japanese were producing superbly engineered stuff (not necessarily all good, but stuff built for example strong enough to do it's job while still being light and cheap enough to sell lots of) and happy to remake all their tooling every couple of years to stay ahead. My mates take on that is it is all down to empire arrogance "they will buy from us because we're british" point of view. Plus trade union idiots on Leninistic crusades to bankrupt everything didn't help, which led to us being on a mission to stockpile already outdated shit while the Japanese were inventing kanban and 5S production.

    Perkins still a popular industrial and marine engine. No idea where they make them. Probably not the midlands. They are good though, we use a little 3 pot one on the winch for the gaping gill caving meet.


    *Not allus bad. The Land Rover 300tdi still in use today for the military defender wolf has a lineage going back to the 60's

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    Now you're just being nasty to the bankers. Somebody has to steal all that dosh off you or you would just waste it on a new Skoda.
    No chance, too much electronic shit on new stuff, I'll find a classic next and shoehorn an old mechanical diesel into it. No fucking chance that'll be on finance either...

  8. #128
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WFO View Post
    ... happy to remake all their tooling every couple of years to stay ahead. ..
    I think that was the key thing. The Brit bikes were too much emphasis on "tradition" and not enough on innovation. Also the Japanese philosophy of kaizen versus the English one of "near enough".

    Quote Originally Posted by WFO View Post
    ...My mates take on that is it is all down to empire arrogance "they will buy from us because we're british" point of view...
    Yeah, must be something in that but of course it was sweating the R&D expenditure to the limit as well, so easy to see the profit motive in the thinking as well. The early Japanese bikes were so shit that complacency was another easy to see feature. The racist view of the Japanese as copiers not innovators did not help. I remember a friend getting a Kawa S1 the first 250 to top a ton and no one was anti Japanese any more. It was a good looking bike too (for the fashions of the day). I don't remember any British bikes being the objects of desire after than. The Triumph Trident and BSA equivalent (Rocket three) should have been best bikes on the road in the late 60s and should have beat the CB 750 hands down. The UK really gave away the whole industry over the following decade. As you say by the 80s it was essentially dead.

    Wish I had bought one when they were cheap
    https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1305834
    Last edited by Chrisch; 01-02-2021 at 02:24 PM. Reason: add url
    We give 350m a week to the EU. Let's give it to Dido Harding instead.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    The Triumph Trident and BSA equivalent (Rocket three) should have been best bikes on the road in the late 60s and should have beat the CB 750 hands down. The UK really gave away the whole industry over the following decade.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    The Triumph Trident and BSA equivalent (Rocket three) should have been best bikes on the road in the late 60s and should have beat the CB 750 hands down.
    Maybe, on that model. Although I'm not convinced.

    But what you were seeing there was the end of one era of the vertically split crankcase engine, which was bloody stupid for a multi pot engine, and the start of the horizontally split, modern unit construction type. Different world of reliability, rigidity, oil tightness and eventual final power potential, not to mention tolerance stack putting all the cases together making them silly expensive to make for no benefit!

    Re buying stuff when it was cheap some of the complete dogs of GSXRs I thrashed despatching would be worth 10k now lol

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwIku8fA_R8 have a watch of that lot, see how much of an arse pain he has taking stuff off just to get access to the front sprocket, that'll sort your nostalgia about the heaps of badly designed shit they used to turn out. (although he's talking a bit of bollox in other videos about machining split bearing surfaces... but I won't go too much into that just now...)
    Last edited by WFO; 02-02-2021 at 08:33 AM.

  10. #130
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WFO View Post
    ...
    But what you were seeing there was the end of one era of the vertically split crankcase engine, which was bloody stupid for a multi pot engine, and the start of the horizontally split, modern unit construction type. Different world of reliability, rigidity, oil tightness and eventual final power potential, not to mention tolerance stack putting all the cases together making them silly expensive to make for no benefit!..
    True. Perhaps that hits at the heart of the matter. The manufacturing process needed to change at that point. The #1 missed opportunity. Never really though about that aspect of the engine in that light before.

    Hmmm. Yes. That makes a lot of sense.
    We give 350m a week to the EU. Let's give it to Dido Harding instead.


 
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