Governing body info on new covid tier

[WFO]

Well, the answer is pretty relevant to the point you were trying to make.

It's all just about revenue then? Nothing else?

Agreed. But "You might kill yourself"... and not endanger anyone who has to try to fish your body out or rescue you? Or do you dive solo? And what about everyone else affected, directly or indirectly?

Anyway, I suspect we are not going to agree on this and we're dragging the thread OT, so let's just leave it at that.

Relevant, it's a matter of principle. Thousands of people service their own cars perfectly safely. There's certainly considerable overlap between those and divers who service their own gear.

And yes, it is all about revenue, since the manufacturers do not allow Joe Public to attend a technicians course, it is restricted to "centres" thus losing any moral high ground trying to bullshit that it's anything to do with safety.
But with the other hand they'll sell you a 5th port kit that means changing the HP seat and several vital O rings... ffs...

Regarding deaths, please go find me some stats of home servicing contributing to fatalities among rescuers or body recoverers! I mostly dive with my partner. She services her own gear too. More likely to die of fookin covid than of servicing my own kit, and the chances of that in my age group are less than being hit by a bus.


At least we aren't derailing it into brexit discussions...

What's your take anyway? That divers are like toddlers who can't be trusted with an allen key in case they poke themselves in the eye? Only the super gurus with a 5th dan slat wall should be allowed to buy an O ring?

[jturner]

Relevant, it's a matter of principle. Thousands of people service their own cars perfectly safely. There's certainly considerable overlap between those and divers who service their own gear.

Do divers get their kit MOT'd then? People who service their cars have to, for the most part.

And yes, it is all about revenue, since the manufacturers do not allow Joe Public to attend a technicians course, it is restricted to "centres" thus losing any moral high ground trying to bullshit that it's anything to do with safety.
But with the other hand they'll sell you a 5th port kit that means changing the HP seat and several vital O rings... ffs...

Regarding deaths, please go find me some stats of home servicing contributing to fatalities among rescuers or body recoverers! I mostly dive with my partner. She services her own gear too. More likely to die of fookin covid than of servicing my own kit, and the chances of that in my age group are less than being hit by a bus.

What's your take anyway? That divers are like toddlers who can't be trusted with an allen key in case they poke themselves in the eye? Only the super gurus with a 5th dan slat wall should be allowed to buy an O ring?

Nope. You assume, and you know what they say about assumptions... There's a middle ground and I'd be somewhere in there. The manufacurers should train people to service them properly and then sell you the kits; if you choose to do it badly, wing it, screw about with substandard parts or do the O2 service cleaning with toilet bleach on an filthy old milling machine table, that's your affair, same as it is with everything else in diving (eg planning dives verses just winging it). I don't know why they don't - I've had my regs assembled incorrectly twice by a certain famous Midlands dive site. Once, it was returned in a manner that was plain dangerous (not watertight and would immediately jam open if purged). So I have little faith in the so-called gurus. I want my regs serviced by someone I trust, be that me or someone else, but none of them I know can get the kits, so instead I have to send them all the way to Cornwall to get it done there by someone I trust instead (with the places recommended around here are either shut or shit). If I could get the kits, I'd not have to do that and could service them as and when I felt they might want/need it, or "just in case". But selling kits to just anyone, anywhere and anytime? No. I've seen the crap that comes in for us to "sort out" that's been "home serviced" or repaired, and not everyone is as careful or skilled as you and Mrs WFO.

I have no problem with people who have the correct parts and kit to do it and know their arse from their elbow (especially as some of the "pros" are shit at it or utterly careless apparently), but how can you tell who does? Do we assume everyone can and hope people like you are in the majority, or err on the side of caution and assume you are more of an exception than the rule? As we cannot be sure, I'll go with option 2, even if it is a PITA for me personally.

At least we aren't derailing it into brexit discussions...

Now that is very true, though where do those unofficial Scubapro service kits come from again?!! Germany?!! Uh oh!

[Energy58]

Yeah that's a massive backwards step IMHO. The only reason they say they needed it was that small regularly tested cylinders were running out of space. But the only people who test that regularly are those who can very much afford a new cylinder... bonkers. Plus there is a massive flaw in their logic that they haven't spotted. Ho hum that's the diving industry for you.

Can't imagine what you mean - what harm could a few 1p stickers going missing from an IDEST centre or whatever they are called do? A few spares never go amiss...

BTW how old/small would a cylinder have to be for that non-problem to be an issue in the real world?

[F.P.]

Nope. You assume, and you know what they say about assumptions... There's a middle ground and I'd be somewhere in there. The manufacurers should train people to service them properly and then sell you the kits; if you choose to do it badly, wing it, screw about with substandard parts or do the O2 service cleaning with toilet bleach on an filthy old milling machine table, that's your affair, same as it is with everything else in diving (eg planning dives verses just winging it). I don't know why they don't - I've had my regs assembled incorrectly twice by a certain famous Midlands dive site. Once, it was returned in a manner that was plain dangerous (not watertight and would immediately jam open if purged). So I have little faith in the so-called gurus. I want my regs serviced by someone I trust, be that me or someone else, but none of them I know can get the kits, so instead I have to send them all the way to Cornwall to get it done there by someone I trust instead (with the places recommended around here are either shut or shit). If I could get the kits, I'd not have to do that and could service them as and when I felt they might want/need it, or "just in case". But selling kits to just anyone, anywhere and anytime? No. I've seen the crap that comes in for us to "sort out" that's been "home serviced" or repaired, and not everyone is as careful or skilled as you and Mrs WFO.

I have no problem with people who have the correct parts and kit to do it and know their arse from their elbow (especially as some of the "pros" are shit at it or utterly careless apparently), but how can you tell who does? Do we assume everyone can and hope people like you are in the majority, or err on the side of caution and assume you are more of an exception than the rule? As we cannot be sure, I'll go with option 2, even if it is a PITA for me personally.

I'd like to be able to buy a full service kit for my valves, no so that I can service them but have the necessary to repair if necessary when on a trip. Over the years I've had 'fix' so called serviced valves on trips when kit has stopped working to keep diving, with a service kit it would be so much easier. I'm lucky in so far as I have contacts with 2 good service people although one is slowly retiring (now only does work for his existing customers).
As for 'so-called' agents - Last time a valve of mine went to the agent for a service it came back with a snotty letter bollocking me for a non-original 'O' in the valve yet the part that needed changing (over pressure 'plug') was still in the valve and when questioned why it hadn't been changed all they could say was 'we don't take that part out...!'.

As for the knowledge to do the work - well the books can be found on the web.

The first valve I bought came with a very comprehensive handbook with chapters on thanking me for buying, washing the kit, service intervals and recording of, exploded diagrams, serving tools and expected life of components (most '0' rings - 5 Years!).

The second valve I bought included a complete service kit as standard - but that all changed when IDEST came on the scene.

It seems to me that the industry (IDEST) in the UK wants us stop diving when kit stops working for what ever reason when away or do we have to carry spares of everything?

If that philosophy was applied to U/W photography would we all have flooded camera's?

[jturner]

I'd like to be able to buy a full service kit for my valves, no so that I can service them but have the necessary to repair if necessary when on a trip. Over the years I've had 'fix' so called serviced valves on trips when kit has stopped working to keep diving, with a service kit it would be so much easier. I'm lucky in so far as I have contacts with 2 good service people although one is slowly retiring (now only does work for his existing customers).
As for 'so-called' agents - Last time a valve of mine went to the agent for a service it came back with a snotty letter bollocking me for a non-original 'O' in the valve yet the part that needed changing (over pressure 'plug') was still in the valve and when questioned why it hadn't been changed all they could say was 'we don't take that part out...!'.

As for the knowledge to do the work - well the books can be found on the web.

The first valve I bought came with a very comprehensive handbook with chapters on thanking me for buying, washing the kit, service intervals and recording of, exploded diagrams, serving tools and expected life of components (most '0' rings - 5 Years!).

The second valve I bought included a complete service kit as standard - but that all changed when IDEST came on the scene.

It seems to me that the industry (IDEST) in the UK wants us stop diving when kit stops working for what ever reason when away or do we have to carry spares of everything?

If that philosophy was applied to U/W photography would we all have flooded camera's?

I agree for the most part - I also have o-ring kits for those emergencies out and away from a service centre. However, I do not agree on "As for the knowledge to do the work - well the books can be found on the web". Many things in life take more than reading a book to get right. I don't service valves, so maybe they are that simple. But maybe not. I also know from first hand experience that most people consider having the book vaguely near them and open constitutes "reading it" whilst they wing it based on what they think it says. Oh and a camera housing o-ring is a bit different to the internals of a reg to be fair. But other than that, I would love to have a proper kit of the correct type/hardness/size/material of o-rings for my regs. I have one for my CCR and although I've never needed it, I'm damn glad I have it and can use it, should I need to.

[gobfish1]

Don't know why people think they must have a bag of new bits to keep a regular going for 20 years
98% of the time no new parts are needed to keep your regs in good working order . Sure new bits would be nice . But not nessercerle needed .
IV had regs for 30 plus years that have never needed a new part . Never had to replace a hp seat .
Maybe I was just lucky . I often replace old worn out parts with other used parts .
I can buy a used first stage or second stage for about 50 quid strip it down and have about £160+ worth of parts . Well would be if I went and payed shop prices.

[dwhitlow]

Don't know why people think they must have a bag of new bits to keep a regular going for 20 years
98% of the time no new parts are needed to keep your regs in good working order . Sure new bits would be nice . But not nessercerle needed .
IV had regs for 30 plus years that have never needed a new part . Never had to replace a hp seat .
Maybe I was just lucky . I often replace old worn out parts with other used parts .
I can buy a used first stage or second stage for about 50 quid strip it down and have about £160+ worth of parts . Well would be if I went and payed shop prices.

You are complete correct and are spreading wrong thinking

A set of regs is mostly lumps of metal, with a few o-rings, and most parts will last for decades, with the occasional crushed, or damaged, o-ring actually needing replacement However, the 'if it works don't fix it' philosophy is very bad for the suppliers and regular parts replacement help keep them in business so that can keep making their reliable product. Funny world innit!