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  1. #81
    All hail ZOM Woz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesp View Post
    I use an adaptor I knocked up to charge the BSA from a dive cylinder.

    The closest test house to me, used to test the cylinders for the local fireservice; so curious what regime they were working to.
    Breathing air cylinders are fine (SCBA sets etc). Only cylinders for breathing use are under the IDEST ticket.

    https://www.ukas.com/wp-content/uplo...tification.pdf

    Another interesting stick to thrash the diving industry with is ASSET are not UKAS registered, and as such cannot perform the legally required 10 year hydro test. The 5/2.5 in between any old competent person can do. Personally I would love to see ASSET get themselves sorted with a UKAS ticket to provide some competition to IDEST.
    Last edited by Woz; 21-07-2021 at 02:28 PM.
    I have nothing to do with BSAC any more apart from being a muggle member. So anything I write on here is likely to be complete bollocks. Hooray!

  2. #82
    Established TDF Member jamesp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woz View Post
    Breathing air cylinders are fine (SCBA sets etc). Only cylinders for breathing use are under the IDEST ticket.

    https://www.ukas.com/wp-content/uplo...tification.pdf

    Another interesting stick to thrash the diving industry with is ASSET are not UKAS registered, and as such cannot perform the legally required 10 year hydro test. The 5/2.5 in between any old competent person can do. Personally I would love to see ASSET get themselves sorted with a UKAS ticket to provide some competition to IDEST.
    It took idest long enough to get registered with ukas; that was one of my big bug bears in the early 00s; I had a friend who was testing hydraulic accumulators and pressure vessels, registered with Lloyds register and UKAS; according to idest (who were proper kitchen table outfit), he was not competent to test dive cylinders.

  3. #83
    All hail ZOM Woz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesp View Post
    It took idest long enough to get registered with ukas; that was one of my big bug bears in the early 00s; I had a friend who was testing hydraulic accumulators and pressure vessels, registered with Lloyds register and UKAS; according to idest (who were proper kitchen table outfit), he was not competent to test dive cylinders.
    Yes I'm afraid you still get that. IDEST were set up so that your rinky dinks with 3 or fewer testers could keep testing cylinders without going for full (and expensive) UKAS accreditation. Personally I would much rather get my cylinders tested by a business who do it all day, every day with proper production facilities to service cylinders rather than someone in the back of a dive shop with no engineering experience and a rumbling rig made from a battery drill and some old shopping trolley wheels.

    This lot have 65 employees and all they do is test cylinders... yet they are not an IDEST centre. And actually they couldn't be as they have more than 3 testing staff.
    http://gcs.eu.com/products-and-servi...inder-testing/

    CTS as has been pointed out also have full UKAS accreditation. Along with lots of other tickets.
    http://www.ctsukltd.com/testing.html

    The latest IDEST guideline is to sticker for visuals only with a tamper proof sticker. There are 2 massive glaring problems with this, which unless you are daft as a brick you should be able to spot. IDEST can't...!
    Last edited by Woz; 21-07-2021 at 02:58 PM.
    I have nothing to do with BSAC any more apart from being a muggle member. So anything I write on here is likely to be complete bollocks. Hooray!

  4. #84
    Established TDF Member jamesp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woz View Post
    Yes I'm afraid you still get that. IDEST were set up so that your rinky dinks with 3 or fewer testers could keep testing cylinders without going for full (and expensive) UKAS accreditation. Personally I would much rather get my cylinders tested by a business who do it all day, every day with proper production facilities to service cylinders rather than someone in the back of a dive shop with no engineering experience and a rumbling rig made from a battery drill and some old shopping trolley wheels.

    This lot have 65 employees and all they do is test cylinders... yet they are not an IDEST centre. And actually they couldn't be as they have more than 3 testing staff.
    http://gcs.eu.com/products-and-servi...inder-testing/

    CTS as has been pointed out also have full UKAS accreditation. Along with lots of other tickets.
    http://www.ctsukltd.com/testing.html
    I once dropped off some cylinders, and Mr Reynolds was on site doing the idest inspection (so that will date it).
    The guy who owned the test house at the time, had previously been giving me the spiel about how expensive it had been to set up, one piece of equipment alone had been 1600.
    You know the kind of stuff I use, 1600 is a cheap accessary in my game; so you can imagine it rather passed me by!
    They did get puzzled when I asked why they only had one gauge, after they complained about the time taken for calibration; didn`t get the production/inspection/standard hierarchy.

  5. #85
    All hail ZOM Woz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesp View Post
    I once dropped off some cylinders, and Mr Reynolds was on site doing the idest inspection (so that will date it).
    The guy who owned the test house at the time, had previously been giving me the spiel about how expensive it had been to set up, one piece of equipment alone had been 1600.
    You know the kind of stuff I use, 1600 is a cheap accessary in my game; so you can imagine it rather passed me by!
    They did get puzzled when I asked why they only had one gauge, after they complained about the time taken for calibration; didn`t get the production/inspection/standard hierarchy.
    Yep you have hit the nail on the head. 1600 is peanuts for proper kit for a proper engineer.

    They are recruiting for inspectors. Should I forward my day rate for a laugh?

    If you want even more of a laugh, ask IDEST one question:
    How many cylinders did you test in 2020?

    They won't be able to answer it.

    Every cylinder has a traceable serial number. That should be recorded and testing done under a regime exactly like an MOT test for a car. Log in, validate the serial number, record a test, issue a cert. Then a fill station can tell easily if an IDEST cylinder is genuinely tested, the industry gets proper data about failures, passes and the number of cylinders tested etc. I did propose this but got "some of our testers don't even have a computer" as a response. [PICARD FACEPALM GIF]

    The whole testing thing is under the auspices of the DfT who don't really want to get stuck in as far as this would need. The one thing that is in our favour is cylinders are generally so over engineered that failures are very rare.
    Last edited by Woz; 21-07-2021 at 03:48 PM.
    I have nothing to do with BSAC any more apart from being a muggle member. So anything I write on here is likely to be complete bollocks. Hooray!

  6. #86
    Established TDF Member MikeF's Avatar
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    If only we had a national diving organisation that would take up issues like cartels controlling spares for equipment, only filling cylinders tested by their mates in the same cartel, etc, on behalf of the people that actually pay their wages?

    and while we are here can anyone tell me if BS EN ISO 22434 actually requires the tester to strip apart your fully functioning valve and replace the O rings with ones that are not actually the same size, or destroy valves that 'fail' their own standard and refuse to hand the valves back to the owner?

  7. #87
    Established TDF Member jamesp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woz View Post
    Yep you have hit the nail on the head. 1600 is peanuts for proper kit for a proper engineer.

    They are recruiting for inspectors. Should I forward my day rate for a laugh?

    If you want even more of a laugh, ask IDEST one question:
    How many cylinders did you test in 2020?

    They won't be able to answer it.

    Every cylinder has a traceable serial number. That should be recorded and testing done under a regime exactly like an MOT test for a car. Log in, validate the serial number, record a test, issue a cert. Then a fill station can tell easily if an IDEST cylinder is genuinely tested, the industry gets proper data about failures, passes and the number of cylinders tested etc. I did propose this but got "some of our testers don't even have a computer" as a response. [PICARD FACEPALM GIF]

    The whole testing thing is under the auspices of the DfT who don't really want to get stuck in as far as this would need. The one thing that is in our favour is cylinders are generally so over engineered that failures are very rare.
    I wonder if any idest test house could tell you how many cylinders they have tested, given the number of cash transactions.
    I asked one for a VAT receipt once, the tester did not know how much the test was less vat, as he "left that to the accountants".

  8. #88
    Established TDF Member Energy58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woz View Post
    The whole testing thing is under the auspices of the DfT who don't really want to get stuck in as far as this would need.
    I agree - SCUBA cylinders are a real niche area compared to industrial gasses etc. and presumably the Civil Service just want it to go away - but if they want to play the "not filling that its not IDEST" game then it comes under the CMA and they don't p*** about - fines of up 10% of turnover and up to 5 years in jail for managers!

  9. #89
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    I've questioned IDEA's abilities for many years having come to the conclusion it was and is principally a pricing ring with dubious engineering standards.
    Unfortunately they do seem to have the name known but little else. Test house I use lost the contract with the local NERC people 'cause he isn't IDEST registered, he just had the cylinders back from the NERC people, under the counter, to do the job properly.


 
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