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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by simon mitchell View Post
    Hi Iain,

    I have no idea what kompromat OSEL have on you, but it must be spectacular given your enthusiasm for attaching your star to their sputtering rocket. In this latest example you obliquely defend Brad Horn's claim that OSEL have never had any quality assurance problems with products released to their customers, when (as you can see) there are many people on this thread who know that to be unequivocally false. Not to mention problems with the promised products that were never released to customers, like the iCCR and the bailout rebreather you were touting in an earlier post.

    Regarding obtaining material from RBW, given Brad's demonstrated penchant for revising history, I have had the prescience to keep copies of many relevant posts related to debates I have been involved in with OSEL. They come in handy, in cases like this.



    Yes, its a relief that there are a tiny number of places where deception and lies remain poorly tolerated. But don't worry; there are still plenty of places on the internet where you can puff your chest out and say anything you like.

    Finally, its fairly rich for you to complain about things being more than 10 years old, when virtually all the corporate 'knowledge' you spruik on these forums is way older than that.

    Simon M
    Hi Simon.

    You have it all wrong my friend salvage rights in Murmansk are very different to the rest of Europe. Besides there is no “kompromat” between friends.
    As for OSEL and QA they don’t have any QA problems as far as I can see. They do however have a clear and transparent Quality Assurance certification
    process to a considerably higher standard than any sports diving product or company on the market bar none today and have had this for some considerable
    time and that alone is kind of hard to kick against.

    On the subject of Rebreather World I’m glad some of the hard work IP and postings have been saved. I would just urge you to use the information wisely
    and not just to knock chunks out of stuff and OSEL in particular. What comes in handy is wisdom, collected information without wisdom is simply a waste of resource.

    Regarding the “tiny number of places where deception and lies remain poorly tolerated” I trust you were not inferring that the posts we both had recently on ScubaBoard on IWR that were removed both yours and mine were in that category of lies or deception. If so lets clear it up.

    Finally as for the “corporate knowledge I spruik on these forums” being older than 10 years you are perfectly aware I am under a number of Non Disclosure Agreements with many more things that may if still relevant or requested be made known in time provided I do not break the time limited agreements.
    We are safe with the old stuff, provided its relevant to the question or answers. Just don’t make the mistake of thinking that it is all that is available. Iain M
    Last edited by iain/hsm; 29-03-2020 at 10:39 PM.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by simon mitchell View Post
    The intended implication of this is unmitigated revisionist nonsense as anyone around the forums 10 years ago will verify. For years, the focus of the "open revolution" rebreather was a rebreather with the capability of preventing death through engineering - it would prevent you breathing on an unsafe loop. No one EVER talked about releasing an mCCR oxygen rebreather first. The provision of an mCCR oxygen rebreather was NEVER on the radar until it was clear that you could not make the iCCR work adequately.
    Interesting thinking by you as ever Simon. Proven spectacularly wrong by those whom bought their mCCR oxygen rebreather for US$995 Apocalypse Type IV CCR when OSEL first took orders. That being what was shipped to them just as soon as CE certification was received.
    Its weird that you are upset that a song and dance wasn’t made about this for your benefit at the time. It was always the case.
    The iCCR Monitor was simply an add on option to the Apocalypse Type IV CCR when folk first placed orders. It had a separate part #. Still has for that matter.

    The iCCR as was originally manufactured and displayed worked perfectly well; exactly as it was designed to do. Fully CE certified to EN14143 inclusive of EN61508 which indicates just how well it worked. No other rebreather being available certified to that standard. Unless you reckon and you probably do for that matter, in your attempt to revise known history, that anyone could get a rebreather through CE certification and an actual functional safety certification audit without it being fully diveable.

    Hindsight for OSEL based on another manufacturers misfortune, luckily identified before shipping to customers, just proved that the iCCRs original autobailout trigger specification was insufficient to keep divers alive whom were deliberately force diving a non safe to dive unit. Whats now in the works for iCCR customers to get is even better and for those considerable number of divers with outstanding iCCR orders on the cards, OSEL is still honouring the Apocalypse Type IV CCR US$995 price and the iCCR Montitors price as originally ordered….

    Quote Originally Posted by simon mitchell View Post


    FOR THE AVoIDANCE OF DOUBT, SIMON DID NOT ACTUALLY WRITE THIS, IT IS A PARODY, DISTORTION, ATTEMPT TO ALTER THE TRUTH ... Mal

    The .. fact .. is .. that releasing the oxygen mCCR on its own was always part of the plan. Those of us who were around the forums from the mid 2000s on know this (like so many other things he says) to be completely true. The early discussions of the "open revolution" rebreather .. included the possibility that an oxygen mCCR might be released.
    Simon, helped you out with a few minor corrections to your obviously flawed recollection of some quite simple facts.

    One of the things OSEL has always done very well, is provision of support for the DIY homebuilder. For those whom are diving Apocalypse rebreathers you can get any replacement parts from stock. Not something all that common these days from a rebreather manufacturer. It doesn’t matter the part or assembly, if it is suitable for DIY rebreather use OSEL will sell it direct to the customer even if you don’t dive an Apoc. OSEL has been doing this for over a decade with no fatalities to date.
    For some this has meant they can simply buy a fully CE certified and lowest WOB rebreather to add their own electronics to (either PPO2 monitor for mCCR as most do or eCCR controller as some have done), the lowest WOB BOV on the market which can lower the WOB of any other rebreather (especially useful for you Simon), CMF oxygen injector or just small components like improved P-Ports. The last being exactly how I found out about OSEL in the first place.

    Obviously pre-CE so they couldn’t be sold/shipped at that time but at DEMA in 2009 were IIRC 1x Incursion eCCR, 2 x Apocalypse Type IV iCCR with extra end-tidal CO2 and PPO2 PODs, 1 x Apocalypse Type IV CCR and a couple of ALVBOVs. That Type IV CCR out on the table with no electronics, being the Oxygen mCCR you ignored, until it upset you by being available. See Curt Bowens video at https://www.facebook.com/OpenSafetyE...8402640545847/

    The original concept idea for the then light grey colour prototype Apoc to support DIY mCCR use was that O2 cells for PPO2 monitoring would sit in the CL ala early Drager mCCR conversions as this was convenient with the PODs fitted. Until it was found circa 2008 through the ALVBOV triggering during a test dive that this was a slightly flawed concept due to the high probability of water blocked cells… And we all know the result of that from the Optima accident study! For the interest of some, all early iCCR manned test dives were done with independent PPO2 monitoring as the primary for safety reasons and data tracking.
    For the Apocalypse Type IV CCR as this has always been an mCCR with the addition of any PPO2 Monitoring, Narkedat90 and Tecme.de were identified early on as suitable suppliers of 3rd party PODs. They still are...
    Last edited by Mal; 10-04-2020 at 06:25 AM. Reason: Highlight the Quote is false

  3. #103
    Established TDF Member jamesp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad_Horn View Post
    Interesting thinking by you as ever Simon. Proven spectacularly wrong by those whom bought their mCCR oxygen rebreather for US$995 Apocalypse Type IV CCR when OSEL first took orders. That being what was shipped to them just as soon as CE certification was received.
    Its weird that you are upset that a song and dance wasn’t made about this for your benefit at the time. It was always the case.
    The iCCR Monitor was simply an add on option to the Apocalypse Type IV CCR when folk first placed orders. It had a separate part #. Still has for that matter.

    The iCCR as was originally manufactured and displayed worked perfectly well; exactly as it was designed to do. Fully CE certified to EN14143 inclusive of EN61508 which indicates just how well it worked. No other rebreather being available certified to that standard. Unless you reckon and you probably do for that matter, in your attempt to revise known history, that anyone could get a rebreather through CE certification and an actual functional safety certification audit without it being fully diveable.

    Hindsight for OSEL based on another manufacturers misfortune, luckily identified before shipping to customers, just proved that the iCCRs original autobailout trigger specification was insufficient to keep divers alive whom were deliberately force diving a non safe to dive unit. Whats now in the works for iCCR customers to get is even better and for those considerable number of divers with outstanding iCCR orders on the cards, OSEL is still honouring the Apocalypse Type IV CCR US$995 price and the iCCR Montitors price as originally ordered….


    Simon, helped you out with a few minor corrections to your obviously flawed recollection of some quite simple facts.

    One of the things OSEL has always done very well, is provision of support for the DIY homebuilder. For those whom are diving Apocalypse rebreathers you can get any replacement parts from stock. Not something all that common these days from a rebreather manufacturer. It doesn’t matter the part or assembly, if it is suitable for DIY rebreather use OSEL will sell it direct to the customer even if you don’t dive an Apoc. OSEL has been doing this for over a decade with no fatalities to date.
    For some this has meant they can simply buy a fully CE certified and lowest WOB rebreather to add their own electronics to (either PPO2 monitor for mCCR as most do or eCCR controller as some have done), the lowest WOB BOV on the market which can lower the WOB of any other rebreather (especially useful for you Simon), CMF oxygen injector or just small components like improved P-Ports. The last being exactly how I found out about OSEL in the first place.

    Obviously pre-CE so they couldn’t be sold/shipped at that time but at DEMA in 2009 were IIRC 1x Incursion eCCR, 2 x Apocalypse Type IV iCCR with extra end-tidal CO2 and PPO2 PODs, 1 x Apocalypse Type IV CCR and a couple of ALVBOVs. That Type IV CCR out on the table with no electronics, being the Oxygen mCCR you ignored, until it upset you by being available. See Curt Bowens video at https://www.facebook.com/OpenSafetyE...8402640545847/

    The original concept idea for the then light grey colour prototype Apoc to support DIY mCCR use was that O2 cells for PPO2 monitoring would sit in the CL ala early Drager mCCR conversions as this was convenient with the PODs fitted. Until it was found circa 2008 through the ALVBOV triggering during a test dive that this was a slightly flawed concept due to the high probability of water blocked cells… And we all know the result of that from the Optima accident study! For the interest of some, all early iCCR manned test dives were done with independent PPO2 monitoring as the primary for safety reasons and data tracking.
    For the Apocalypse Type IV CCR as this has always been an mCCR with the addition of any PPO2 Monitoring, Narkedat90 and Tecme.de were identified early on as suitable suppliers of 3rd party PODs. They still are...
    #are you f**king kidding me.

    Are you employed writing chumps alternative facts view of reality by any chance?

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad_Horn View Post
    And we all know the result of that from the Optima accident study!
    You mean the one you pair of shysters sold to some gullible widow after filming it with your iphone in a carrier bag and got laughed out of court with?
    That study?

  5. #105
    #keepittea ebt's Avatar
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    I swore I'd never write another post on this crap, but well.... isolation.

    Originally, this was billed as a grand plan to share all the knowledge existed in the homebuilder community (AARG et al) and it was labelled as the "open revolution" advertised as a fully functioning eccr for 1000. Over time, that turned into multiple delays, then the basic chassis was released as an oxygen rebreather with the view that homebuilders and after-market specialists (like Narkedat90) could add their own electronics.

    Shortly after this I think the LSD was added to my cuppa, because it went very random. We had the great witch hunt for other manufacturers, the infamous "one list to smear them all" (accident list) and then it was battle to see what could grow faster, you had a choice of;

    1. Disgruntled customers fed up with non-delivery
    2. pdf files. a LOT of pdf files
    3. odd companies springing up in scotland,soviet countries and others, all of which seemed to be traced back to the ginger one.

    There's no denying the design has it merits (and its flaws), but the historical rewrite being attempted here is a little cheap.

  6. #106
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    I actually went to the old place to refresh my memory of this. I am sure it was going to be an Eccr for a grand, early adopters only. The threads seemed to have disappeared, were they removed due to the threat of legal action from the ginger one.

    Years ago at EuroTec John Lamb gave a talk on sensors., when he invited questions the Ginger one and his side kick started questioning John's knowledge, and saying he was wrong as in some parts of the world your O2 is only 93% pure plus a load of other stuff all covered in John's talk. At that point after hearing the Ginger one speak I decided he was a twit, nothing that had happened since makes me change my mind...

    Graham.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by bottle maker View Post
    I actually went to the old place to refresh my memory of this. I am sure it was going to be an Eccr for a grand, early adopters only. The threads seemed to have disappeared, were they removed due to the threat of legal action from the ginger one.

    Years ago at EuroTec John Lamb gave a talk on sensors., when he invited questions the Ginger one and his side kick started questioning John's knowledge, and saying he was wrong as in some parts of the world your O2 is only 93% pure plus a load of other stuff all covered in John's talk. At that point after hearing the Ginger one speak I decided he was a TWAT, nothing that had happened since makes me change my mind...

    Graham.
    fixed that for you

    alby

  8. #108
    Established TDF Member Paulo's Avatar
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    Why is this crowd allowed to advertise their wares on the page?
    Remember anything you read on the internet was probably written by some guy sitting at home in his underpants! Including this !!

    Illegitimi non carborundum

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulo View Post
    Why is this crowd allowed to advertise their wares on the page?
    Because the post started out as piece of safety information and had it continued on that subject matter you all would have learned something.
    That is until "this crowd" decided to spout the same old vitriol and crudity on a subject they are both as helpless as they are hapless.

    Discussing Non rotation of a high pressure spindle seat in oxygen I woud have thought would have been an interesting subject in a diving forum.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad_Horn View Post
    Fully CE certified to EN14143 inclusive of EN61508 which indicates just how well it worked. ..
    Brad
    In addition wasn't the original OSEL certification to the revised higher CE standard before CE members on the rebreather committee voted to have the standard lowered because members could not incorporate or even reach the functional safety EN 61508 requirement in the original standard.


 
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