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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diving Dubai View Post
    Personally for non overhead OW diving

    Both primary and Alt have 1.2m hoses. Alt routes under left arm (primary under right) both regs have swivels. Alt secured by rubber bungee necklace

    Sharing on alt, the receiver can either swim on my left, of be in face to face and the hose make a natural loop - none of this silly 'S' curve as with a hose on the right side

    My opinion is that 6' hoses are dog shit for general OW diving - especially in current.

    Care to explain why?

    Long hoses have been used for many years in current and high flow caves without any issues. If correctly stowed there is noticably less drag than a standard reg hose coming from the cylinder valve and sraight over the shoulder

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tel View Post
    AFAIK (and correct me if I'm wrong) you were taught how to rig/use long-hose properly along with all the benefits etc.
    What if you were taught by EXACTLY the same Instructors how to rig/use an Octopus again with all the benefits etc.
    That's a good point. Lets deconstruct this using my personal experience.

    First taught to dive in Spain on a PADI OW in a holiday location, 2012. Standard BCD style rig with RH octopus. It was clear that there was no proper place to stash the octopus and fold the hose. This ended up being stuffed into the BCD pocket, with the hose being folded and shoved through a D-ring on the jacket. Restowing was a royal PITA. Used it a couple of times during that course and can't remember using it thereafter. ISTR some "golfball" devices to stuff the reg into.

    At the time I thought that it was a difficult config as it wasn't easy to get to, requiring a lot of fiddling (with hindsight, probably an awful lot of task loading too).

    The Longhose was taught to me on a Fundies course (which I failed). At that point I'd done around about 60ish dives, mostly in Spain being lead around dive sites and some UK diving with a PADI outfit. I was still pretty incompetent in the water, certainly regarding core skills which Fundies showed me the light as it were.

    The Longhose was really easy to use. Wrap it around you last and simply give it to the recipient whilst scooping up the backup for me. Dicking around with untangling the umbilical was a faff ("under way", "over and out"), but that didn't matter as the donor lives.


    The octopus is -- and will always be IMHO -- a second-class citizen. It's stuffed away and isn't used during a dive and is easily forgotten to test that it's working OK. In the early days (incompetent, inexperienced) if someone grabbed my primary I'd be utterly flummoxed trying to recover my octopus: it would potentially be a complete cluster-fuck.

    The longhose -- even without the excellent GUE Fundies training -- really is a no-brainer. The backup is readily to hand and just under your chin. Even in the early days (just assume that was what PADI gave me) it would be piss-easy; someone takes your primary, you scoop up the backup from under your chin; you then work out the untangling whilst everyone lives. It's just easier and more natural. Even if the backup free-flows, it's easy to get to and stop.


    Of course jumping forward to the present day with many hundreds of dives, the longhose really does work well as the same donate action works regardless of the gas I'm using; even on those long deco stops. It also means that every time I'm jumping in for a solo dive, I would have breathed from both regs at least 3 times before jumping in. Even when I've got stage cylinders on my RHS it works, albeit the untangling takes longer. I also use a longhose with Sidemount, with the excess hose bungeed down the RH cylinder.

    For extreme exceptions -- I'm talking CDG sump diving here -- I can see there's no point in having a long hose simply because you're diving alone in a high-risk environment. This is extremely specialist and utterly off-topic.


    Again, the longhose is a complete no-brainer. The Octopus is basically a poor system prone to task loading and reliability issues. If diving without an umbilical, just use a 1.5m hose.


    Oh, and the ridiculous "starfish - take my octopus" malarkey just beggars belief at its crass stupidity. If someone's out of gas, you need to take an active part in giving that person the gas to save their lives AND ensure they don't kill you in the process.
    Last edited by Wibs; 07-03-2020 at 08:48 AM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diving Dubai View Post
    Personally for non overhead OW diving

    Both primary and Alt have 1.2m hoses. Alt routes under left arm (primary under right) both regs have swivels. Alt secured by rubber bungee necklace

    Sharing on alt, the receiver can either swim on my left, of be in face to face and the hose make a natural loop - none of this silly 'S' curve as with a hose on the right side

    My opinion is that 6' hoses are dog shit for general OW diving - especially in current.
    We'll have to agree to differ. If you're not diving with an umbilical to hook the 2.1m hose under, then use a shorter 1.5m hose which goes under your armpit. Whether single or twins or even on deco, the donate action is the same reaction; take reg from gob and shove in victim's gob; scoop up backup; then untangle and sort shit out.

  4. #24
    Coastal Member dwhitlow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wibs View Post
    That's a good point. Lets deconstruct this using my personal experience.

    First taught to dive in Spain on a PADI OW in a holiday location, 2012. Standard BCD style rig with RH octopus. It was clear that there was no proper place to stash the octopus and fold the hose. This ended up being stuffed into the BCD pocket, with the hose being folded and shoved through a D-ring on the jacket. Restowing was a royal PITA. Used it a couple of times during that course and can't remember using it thereafter. ISTR some "golfball" devices to stuff the reg into.

    At the time I thought that it was a difficult config as it wasn't easy to get to, requiring a lot of fiddling (with hindsight, probably an awful lot of task loading too).

    The Longhose was taught to me on a Fundies course (which I failed). At that point I'd done around about 60ish dives, mostly in Spain being lead around dive sites and some UK diving with a PADI outfit. I was still pretty incompetent in the water, certainly regarding core skills which Fundies showed me the light as it were.

    The Longhose was really easy to use. Wrap it around you last and simply give it to the recipient whilst scooping up the backup for me. Dicking around with untangling the umbilical was a faff ("under way", "over and out"), but that didn't matter as the donor lives.


    The octopus is -- and will always be IMHO -- a second-class citizen. It's stuffed away and isn't used during a dive and is easily forgotten to test that it's working OK. In the early days (incompetent, inexperienced) if someone grabbed my primary I'd be utterly flummoxed trying to recover my octopus: it would potentially be a complete cluster-fuck.

    The longhose -- even without the excellent GUE Fundies training -- really is a no-brainer. The backup is readily to hand and just under your chin. Even in the early days (just assume that was what PADI gave me) it would be piss-easy; someone takes your primary, you scoop up the backup from under your chin; you then work out the untangling whilst everyone lives. It's just easier and more natural. Even if the backup free-flows, it's easy to get to and stop.


    Of course jumping forward to the present day with many hundreds of dives, the longhose really does work well as the same donate action works regardless of the gas I'm using; even on those long deco stops. It also means that every time I'm jumping in for a solo dive, I would have breathed from both regs at least 3 times before jumping in. Even when I've got stage cylinders on my RHS it works, albeit the untangling takes longer. I also use a longhose with Sidemount, with the excess hose bungeed down the RH cylinder.

    For extreme exceptions -- I'm talking CDG sump diving here -- I can see there's no point in having a long hose simply because you're diving alone in a high-risk environment. This is extremely specialist and utterly off-topic.


    Again, the longhose is a complete no-brainer. The Octopus is basically a poor system prone to task loading and reliability issues. If diving without an umbilical, just use a 1.5m hose.
    I think you've just restated, in your own words, what Tel said a few posts back
    Quote Originally Posted by Tel View Post
    You are happy with long-hose because it's a pre-thought out system that you've practiced and become confident in using,
    yet you admit the Octo was stuffed and you failed to practice.

    That's not the fault of the kit that's the fault of the diver.

    If we gave a very green Wibs with the same poor attitude a long hose, stuffed and not practiced doubt if the result
    would be any better.

    AFAIK (and correct me if I'm wrong) you were taught how to rig/use long-hose properly along with all the benefits etc.
    What if you were taught by EXACTLY the same Instructors how to rig/use an Octopus again with all the benefits etc.

    This is NOT about the kit or your choice of kit now, what it is about is applying the same criteria of diver effort (or lack of)
    to both.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wibs View Post
    Oh, and the ridiculous "starfish - take my octopus" malarkey just beggars belief at its crass stupidity. If someone's out of gas, you need to take an active part in giving that person the gas to save their lives AND ensure they don't kill you in the process.
    Whilst I can appreciate the 'logic' of the starfish I've never agreed with it and whenever I see divers having a practice they always offer the octopus to the OOG diver.

  5. #25
    Established TDF Member Tel's Avatar
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    Still don't get it, your whole premis is based on NOT comparing like for like.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wibs View Post
    First taught to dive in Spain on a PADI OW in a holiday location, 2012. Standard BCD style rig with RH octopus. It was clear that there was no proper place to stash the octopus and fold the hose. This ended up being stuffed into the BCD pocket, with the hose being folded and shoved through a D-ring on the jacket. Restowing was a royal PITA. Used it a couple of times during that course and can't remember using it thereafter. ISTR some "golfball" devices to stuff the reg into.
    Negative - Stuffing a hose in a D-ring is always a fail, it won't always be able to be deployed properly and can even damage the hose with
    repetitions. As for the Scumball that can distort the mouthpiece and sometimes even rips the mouthpeice off the reg !!!

    Possitive - It is entirley possible to rig an Octopus so that it's stowed correctly, can be accessed easily and restowed using decent training
    so it becomes a slick operation. A poor config is NOT the fault of the kit, it's the fault of the one setting up the kit


    Quote Originally Posted by Wibs View Post
    The Longhose was really easy to use. Wrap it around you last and simply give it to the recipient whilst scooping up the backup for me. Dicking around with untangling the umbilical was a faff ("under way", "over and out"), but that didn't matter as the donor lives.
    Negative - What if the magical long-hose was NOT rigged correctly, was either too long or too short, was stuffed so unable to redeploy for
    training and the too small strangling necklace was so tight had to dip head to use it. Wanna add a few more fubars on the config
    like maybe poor training that results in primary take instead of donate and a real CF on the day and then honestly say that this
    is still the dogs bollocks?


    Quote Originally Posted by Wibs View Post
    The octopus is -- and will always be IMHO -- a second-class citizen. It's stuffed away and isn't used during a dive and is easily forgotten to test that it's working OK. In the early days (incompetent, inexperienced) if someone grabbed my primary I'd be utterly flummoxed trying to recover my octopus: it would potentially be a complete cluster-fuck.
    It's a second-class citizen in your mind, because you've applied your later/better standards of config and training to the
    inept and weak config and standards you learned at the start. Instead of the usual rhetoric citing the same story again and again
    are you saying that given your current level of experince you'd be unable to come up with an Oct config and standards protocol
    that dealt with the negatives and woudl work well?


    Quote Originally Posted by Wibs View Post
    The longhose -- even without the excellent GUE Fundies training -- really is a no-brainer. The backup is readily to hand and just under your chin. Even in the early days (just assume that was what PADI gave me) it would be piss-easy; someone takes your primary, you scoop up the backup from under your chin; you then work out the untangling whilst everyone lives. It's just easier and more natural. Even if the backup free-flows, it's easy to get to and stop.
    I think it's a no brainer to look on each system equally both in the negative and the positive to be trully objective and not just believe the hype


    Quote Originally Posted by Wibs View Post
    Oh, and the ridiculous "starfish - take my octopus" malarkey just beggars belief at its crass stupidity. If someone's out of gas, you need to take an active part in giving that person the gas to save their lives AND ensure they don't kill you in the process.
    Yes you 'should' take an active part, but then the vast majority of the worlds divers by a massive margin dive with someone they
    met an hour before, so way better to be practiced in decent buddy/team diving, but also expect a blank stare and no response
    when signaling out of gas and if that happens guess what everyone including you would be doing

  6. #26
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    IMHO the longhose — with a shorter 1.5m hose — should be adapted as standard by all agencies right from the start. Literally DSD start

  7. #27
    Established TDF Member Tel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wibs View Post
    IMHO the longhose — with a shorter 1.5m hose — should be adapted as standard by all agencies right from the start. Literally DSD start
    And if it was the fatality rate would increase.

    You live in a world of let's be very generous and say 10% of divers that have a decent config, get decent Instruction
    and spend extra time honing skills with those of a similar mindset to become confident and competent.

    The other 90% work on a sliding scale of limited and poor instruction, very little practice (if any) and an uncanny abilty to
    FU whlst matched up with newly met divers trained in who knows what from the other side of the world.

    Success (or otherwise) has little to do with the config or system itself and is entirely down to willingness of the demographic
    to adopt it wholesale. Which is why rhetoric that "X is better" will always fail unless this extremely clear elephant in the room
    is considered first.


 
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