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  1. #11
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    Is that your cave line?

  2. #12
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    Now for a serious moment (not re-running old debates)...

    @greatwhite: have you considered the long hose + primary donate? There's loads of benefits with it, not least that you've somewhere to properly stash the regulators and that you'll always know they're working. For singles it's exactly the same as for a twinset. If you do have to give your regulator to someone who's out of gas or low on gas, you have a bit of space between you. You'll also be used to changing your regulators as it's easy to do it on every dive.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wibs View Post
    Now for a serious moment (not re-running old debates)...

    @greatwhite: have you considered the long hose + primary donate? There's loads of benefits with it, not least that you've somewhere to properly stash the regulators and that you'll always know they're working. For singles it's exactly the same as for a twinset. If you do have to give your regulator to someone who's out of gas or low on gas, you have a bit of space between you. You'll also be used to changing your regulators as it's easy to do it on every dive.
    Couldn't agree more with this. Try getting an OOA diver onto a hardboat lift in choppy seas with a standard octo...and that is the easy bit when you are safe on the surface!

  4. #14
    Established TDF Member Tel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wibs View Post
    Now for a serious moment (not re-running old debates)...

    @greatwhite: have you considered the long hose + primary donate? There's loads of benefits with it,
    not least that you've somewhere to properly stash the regulators
    Diver owns the Octopus and can stash it "properly", if it's not blame the inept diver that will most likely be as much a CF in waiting as with PD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wibs View Post
    and that you'll always know they're working.
    In both cases the diver will obviously know if the primary is working, but the alternate needs exactly the same physcal test regardless
    of where it's situated. Again the config alone does not change a poor check by an inept diver.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wibs View Post
    For singles it's exactly the same as for a twinset.
    Which is only an advantage if you have a twinset, if on singles it's irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wibs View Post
    If you do have to give your regulator to someone who's out of gas or low on gas, you have a bit of space between you.
    Funnily enough that OOG diver was using that same supply to inflate BC/wing, which would make it a really good idea to help control the lift
    making the need for a bit of space irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wibs View Post
    You'll also be used to changing your regulators as it's easy to do it on every dive.
    A good diver will check the alternate for self same as all have been taught from day one, that inept diver won't check no matter how 'easy' it is.

    Bottom line is the Octopus is still by a massive margin ITRO 90% of the world of diving THE alternate for singles and that's because the protocols
    are taught from day one and establsihed within the gerenral peer group that divers mix with on singles. Sure being the largest used will have loads
    of inept divers and poor practices, but that will never be miraculosly solved by changing a config to something else.

    Once onto twins though the story is very different with the figure the other way around and the larger majority running PD. For these types
    of dives and the additional complexties, no question PD now has some real advantages.

    One of these days you'll get that changing the config does not change the attitude of the diver

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tel View Post
    Diver owns the Octopus and can stash it "properly", if it's not blame the inept diver that will most likely be as much a CF in waiting as with PD.



    In both cases the diver will obviously know if the primary is working, but the alternate needs exactly the same physcal test regardless
    of where it's situated. Again the config alone does not change a poor check by an inept diver.


    Which is only an advantage if you have a twinset, if on singles it's irrelevant.


    Funnily enough that OOG diver was using that same supply to inflate BC/wing, which would make it a really good idea to help control the lift
    making the need for a bit of space irrelevant.


    A good diver will check the alternate for self same as all have been taught from day one, that inept diver won't check no matter how 'easy' it is.

    Bottom line is the Octopus is still by a massive margin ITRO 90% of the world of diving THE alternate for singles and that's because the protocols
    are taught from day one and establsihed within the gerenral peer group that divers mix with on singles. Sure being the largest used will have loads
    of inept divers and poor practices, but that will never be miraculosly solved by changing a config to something else.

    Once onto twins though the story is very different with the figure the other way around and the larger majority running PD. For these types
    of dives and the additional complexties, no question PD now has some real advantages.

    One of these days you'll get that changing the config does not change the attitude of the diver
    This is a re-run of the octopus wars.

    The only thing I remember about having an octopus -- only used those right at the beginning of my dive career -- was that they're very much second-class citizens. They're stuffed away in random places (pockets, bungeed, folded in half, etc.) and are most definitely not as accessible as a short hose bungeed to your neck, where testing is utterly trivial at any point during a dive (take primary from gob, scoop up backup and breathe; spit out and shove primary back in). When kitting up you have to put the backup bungee around your neck which means you virtually have to test it every time.

    To save a life it's simply take from gob and shove into other diver's gob, scoop up backup -- which you know works because you practice every dive -- then breathe. Worry about unthreading longhose after everyone lives.

    As you well know there's heaps of other benefits of the longhose which are way out of scope for this thread (e.g. same procedure if breathing deco gas, same muscle memory, same config for all OC diving).

    But each to their own.

  6. #16
    Established TDF Member Tel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wibs View Post
    This is a re-run of the octopus wars.

    The only thing I remember about having an octopus -- only used those right at the beginning of my dive career -- was that they're very much second-class citizens. They're stuffed away in random places (pockets, bungeed, folded in half, etc.) and are most definitely not as accessible as a short hose bungeed to your neck, where testing is utterly trivial at any point during a dive (take primary from gob, scoop up backup and breathe; spit out and shove primary back in). When kitting up you have to put the backup bungee around your neck which means you virtually have to test it every time.

    To save a life it's simply take from gob and shove into other diver's gob, scoop up backup -- which you know works because you practice every dive -- then breathe. Worry about unthreading longhose after everyone lives.

    As you well know there's heaps of other benefits of the longhose which are way out of scope for this thread (e.g. same procedure if breathing deco gas, same muscle memory, same config for all OC diving).

    But each to their own.


    No it's a re-run of the same old BS endemic in diving of picking the default to suit your POV.

    Your default on the Octopus is an inept diver that can't do s*it, while default on PD is dive ninja.

    Apply the same criteria to both if you want to be objective instead of a poster boy.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tel View Post
    No it's a re-run of the same old BS endemic in diving of picking the default to suit your POV.

    Your default on the Octopus is an inept diver that can't do s*it, while default on PD is dive ninja.

    Apply the same criteria to both if you want to be objective instead of a poster boy.
    Sorry, don't understand.

    What I understand is for the past 500 dives or so I've used a longhose, so have the right to an opinion of it. I also used to use an octopus and remember how completely crap that was, not least because it would be stuffed somewhere in the BCD and was never practised because it was awkward.

    As I said, the point of a longhose is it's trivially easy to use and maintain.

  8. #18
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    Both methods have advantages and disadvantages. I think it is rather telling that the biggest disadvantage with the long hose configuration is that it is not commonplace yet...
    The views expressed are my own, worth what you've paid for them, are not on behalf of anyone else and not those of any company I work for etc.

  9. #19
    Established TDF Member Tel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wibs View Post
    Sorry, don't understand.

    What I understand is for the past 500 dives or so I've used a longhose, so have the right to an opinion of it. I also used to use an octopus and remember how completely crap that was, not least because it would be stuffed somewhere in the BCD and was never practised because it was awkward.

    As I said, the point of a longhose is it's trivially easy to use and maintain.

    You are happy with long-hose because it's a pre-thought out system that you've practiced and become confident in using,
    yet you admit the Octo was stuffed and you failed to practice.

    That's not the fault of the kit that's the fault of the diver.

    If we gave a very green Wibs with the same poor attitude a long hose, stuffed and not practiced doubt if the result
    would be any better.

    AFAIK (and correct me if I'm wrong) you were taught how to rig/use long-hose properly along with all the benefits etc.
    What if you were taught by EXACTLY the same Instructors how to rig/use an Octopus again with all the benefits etc.

    This is NOT about the kit or your choice of kit now, what it is about is applying the same criteria of diver effort (or lack of)
    to both.

  10. #20
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    Personally for non overhead OW diving

    Both primary and Alt have 1.2m hoses. Alt routes under left arm (primary under right) both regs have swivels. Alt secured by rubber bungee necklace

    Sharing on alt, the receiver can either swim on my left, of be in face to face and the hose make a natural loop - none of this silly 'S' curve as with a hose on the right side

    My opinion is that 6' hoses are dog shit for general OW diving - especially in current.


 
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