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  1. #81
    Coastal Member dwhitlow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barrygoss View Post
    Yep. Those retired before 65 need to work �� the students need to work, the housewives need to work. Fruit picking all of them....
    Not happening unless the work is local, pays well, and doesn't get in the way of my other interests!

  2. #82
    Established TDF Member jamesp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barrygoss View Post
    And yet youíre supposed to believe that the economically inactive are the unemployed/unemployable because that was the dog whistle

    But the Tories have been saying unemployment is the lowest itís been in forever @1.4mill

    So those economically inactive


    Yep. Those retired before 65 need to work 😉 the students need to work, the housewives need to work. Fruit picking all of them....

    B
    Our part time office admin is doing a full time degree at the local college(because british people sneer at her Polish Masters degree in Logistics), Since the course started in September 25% have dropped out.
    Dorota is scathing in describing the numbers of students on the course who are just marking time, collecting a subsistence allowance from WAG, or student loan (which they will never pay back) while generally avoiding having to actually earn a living of any sort.
    Glyndwr is a bum end college, but a significant number of students are actually there for little more than the lifestyle.
    I`ve heard lecturers from there say similar.

  3. #83
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Carr View Post
    Won't you be one of them by that time? what do you suggest - compulsory euthanasia at age 65?
    Yes I will be an old fart in 2050 (assuming we make it that long). My suggestion was the abolition of the pension and the start of UBI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Carr View Post
    While we may not be doing paid work, I believe that our efforts are productive - we don't just expect to be supported for doing nothing.
    I am sure that your work is appreciated but nevertheless someone (me) is paying tax to facilitate you doing it. In 2050 there will not be enough young people to pay the pension for the old farts. This coming situation has been known for years, the "demographic time bomb". The boomers have had it all and now left us with a huge debt burden and voted to stop immigrants coming here to pay for me. The house price windfall works against anyone under 50 and the future looks shit on the climate front. There will no need for euthanasia - nature will do the heavy lifting.

  4. #84
    Established TDF Member Steve Clark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesp View Post
    Glyndwr is a bum end college, but a significant number of students are actually there for little more than the lifestyle. I`ve heard lecturers from there say similar.
    This is standard at all universities. There are courses at top universities designed for it. Cambridge - Land Economy I'm looking at you. Turn up for interview in a Morgan dressed in tweed, cobble together a couple of essays a term. Refresher course in compound interest from GCSE maths. Leave with a 2.2. 2-3 years at J P Morgan & then off to the hedge fund. Make decisions based on the analysis of the 1st class maths, nat-sci & engineer grads working for you.

  5. #85
    Established TDF Member jamesp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Clark View Post
    This is standard at all universities. There are courses at top universities designed for it. Cambridge - Land Economy I'm looking at you. Turn up for interview in a Morgan dressed in tweed, cobble together a couple of essays a term. Refresher course in compound interest from GCSE maths. Leave with a 2.2. 2-3 years at J P Morgan & then off to the hedge fund. Make decisions based on the analysis of the 1st class maths, nat-sci & engineer grads working for you.
    Miaow!

    Did my degree part time, 120 started the course: eight of us graduated four years later. We were down to about a dozen at the end of the first year.
    That was a Mech Eng course, so we could generally manage compound interest; although the "maths test" they sprung on us on the induction evening probably did for 25% of the intake.
    Much muttered cursing from guys suddenly realising how rusty their college maths was!

    Friends daughter is at Uni doing RELM(?), the LM being land management.
    Cheshire girl, but no Morgan: more sense.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    Yes I will be an old fart in 2050 (assuming we make it that long). My suggestion was the abolition of the pension and the start of UBI.



    I am sure that your work is appreciated but nevertheless someone (me) is paying tax to facilitate you doing it. In 2050 there will not be enough young people to pay the pension for the old farts. This coming situation has been known for years, the "demographic time bomb". The boomers have had it all and now left us with a huge debt burden and voted to stop immigrants coming here to pay for me. The house price windfall works against anyone under 50 and the future looks shit on the climate front. There will no need for euthanasia - nature will do the heavy lifting.
    What we are trying to do is to help these young people develop the skills so that they can be more productive members of society and geberate wealth so that the country is in a position to afford the pensions in the future.

    UBI was trialled in Finland which has less income variation than the UK and would have been expected to work there if it would work anywhere. It was scrapped because it was found that it discouraged people looking for work. They were happy to live on the UBI and enjoy spending time doing activities that they really enjoyed. One of the things that we have seen in our work with the Prince's Trust is that plenty of young people are happy being om benefits because they can live comfortably enough. When I was younger, being on the dole carried a real stigma and nobody wanted to be on it for longer than necessary. It was barely enough to scrape by on and much less than you could earn doing even basic jobs. Certainly it didn't provide enough for any sort of luxuries or any social life whatsoever. I passed the local foodbank the other and a group of their clients were standing outside with their bags of food - all of them smoking. With the price of cigarettes these days (I've never smoked so I don't the current price only that they are damned expensive), how can they afford them but not food?

    Not all voters of my generation voted to leave - we didn't. As to blaming us for house price inflation - we didn't buy houses as a means to make money, they were bought to provide our families with a roof over our heads. One big difference though is that we were brought up to be savers rather than spenders. Credit was hard to obtain when we were younger - no credit cards. Hire Purchase had to be arranged on every single item and the Chancellor used to set the minimum deposit required in the Budget - frequently at 25% or 30%.

  7. #87
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Carr View Post
    ...
    UBI was trialled in Finland which has less income variation than the UK and would have been expected to work there if it would work anywhere. It was scrapped because it was found that it discouraged people looking for work. ...
    That suggests the problem is the usual right wing idiotic thinking not UBI. The core problem is the halfwitted idea that people should spend their lives toiling away doing something pointless in order to get a few quid a week to live on. As long as this stupidity persists then we are stuck in the current paradigm and it will destroy much of humanity.

    The point of a basic income is that it makes life possible. You have the income you need to pay for the essentials. Over and above that you will have to find a method of funding whatever it is you want to do - scuba diving for instance. The basic income is there to ensure that you don't die of starvation or sleep in a shop doorway. The problem is not UBI it is the small minded petty whining of people that cannot accept the essence of humanity and think "work" (whatever that is) is somehow the thing that defines us. The sort of thinking that fails to understand raising a family or caring for a relative is actually more worthwhile than standing in a factory all day making some pointless shit that is destroying the life support system on which we all rely. UBI releases us from this madness, but the petty and their apologists cannot deal with it as it doesn't increase the wealth of the already wealthy.

    As per my earlier posts I have spent a lot of my life working in companies and for client companies that are full of useless people that are "working" hard to achieve nothing. The blue collar revolution of automation and robotisation is now slowly coming into white collar working and will eventually remove the need for what were once seen as good solid middle class jobs. I would argue that we are very near that point right now. If so then the idea of making "workers" of young people is as wrong headed as the idea that we can all burn fossil fuels for ever and nothing will go wrong with the ecosystem. Humans need food and shelter and after that they pursue pleasure and fulfilment. If you have studied this subject you will be familiar with the theory which is known as Maslow's hierarchy of needs. (https://www.simplypsychology.org/maslow.html)

    Work has become a fulfilment of human needs by being interesting and worthwhile. We define ourselves by it. I'm a doctor/mechanic/waiter/IT nerd. As soon as we got past the point where work was needed the better off rationed it and kept the poor out of it. Well off people have a career and poor people do shit.

    UBI is a game changer simply because it removes the financial aspect of employment as an imperative. Provided you live a basic, humble life with no luxuries then paid employment is not a core requirement. It removes the stigma and criticism of not being in paid employment - the criticism the Finns have reintroduced by the fundamental misunderstanding of what UBI is. This small minded pettiness is what will hold back the move we all need to make. All we as a species need is that food and shelter. That can be provided by maybe two or three percent of our number. I grew up in farming country and worked on a farm in my teens. I loved it and miss it. It paid too little and I went on to be an analyst. But farming is what I love. I would work on a farm for free if we had UBI. The pleasure of creating food would be reward enough. You only need a few people like me and that is food taken care of.

    What is clear is if we carry on as we are, with our big cars, foreign holidays, companion animals, centrally heated homes in cold places and air conditioned homes in hot places, our super luxury lifestyles, our wasting of 40% of foods and our big offices full of commuters travelling thousands of miles a year in order to talk bollocks for a living then we will soon be in such deep shit that billions of people will no longer be able to survive. The status quo cannot continue for much longer. Me, I'd give UBI a go. Maybe it will not work so something else is needed, but the criticism of it that it stops people looking for a job talking bollocks and fucking up the planet is no criticism at all.
    Last edited by Chrisch; 23-02-2020 at 10:52 AM.

  8. #88
    Established TDF Member Steve Clark's Avatar
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    UBI is the c in mx+c. It moves the zero. Currently the zero is a shop doorway or, if you’re lucky, a bed sit. Not acceptable in a modern rich country imho. I have no issue paying people a modest sum to sit on their arse. By virtue of it being universal, I’ll be getting it too. Personally, I’ll be getting paid to sleep, because I work during the day and will be earning from that.

    The only people who need to fear UBI are those earning huge amounts of money. For everyone else, the baseline benefit will out-weigh any potential increase in tax.

    It will also create interesting opportunities for people to re-train and learn without starving their families. Modern and dynamic society.
    Last edited by Steve Clark; 23-02-2020 at 01:51 PM.

  9. #89
    Established TDF Member Paulo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Clark View Post
    UBI is the c in mx+c. It moves the zero. Currently the zero is a shop doorway or, if youíre lucky, a bed sit. Not acceptable in a modern rich country imho. I have no issue paying people a modest sum to sit on their arse. By virtue of it being universal, Iíll be getting it too. Personally, Iíll be getting paid to sleep, because I work during the day and will be earning from that.

    The only people who need to fear UBI are those earning huge amounts of money. For everyone else, the baseline benefit will out-weigh any potential increase in tax.

    It will also create interesting opportunities for people to re-train and learn without starving their families. Modern and dynamic society.
    What is your definition of huge salaries?

    I had a similar conversation with one of the lefties that canvassed my door. They wanted to increase taxes but only for the wealthy, when I pointed out that their definition of wealthy included everyone living in my estate and him, it seemed to come as a shock to him
    Remember anything you read on the internet was probably written by some guy sitting at home in his underpants! Including this !!

    Illegitimi non carborundum

  10. #90
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulo View Post
    What is your definition of huge salaries?

    I had a similar conversation with one of the lefties that canvassed my door. They wanted to increase taxes but only for the wealthy, when I pointed out that their definition of wealthy included everyone living in my estate and him, it seemed to come as a shock to him
    The problem with the tax issue is really that most people think a "big" salary is their own earnings + 15%. As your salary increases the rich definition moves up. If this person's definition of wealthy is an estate full of ordinary people then he doesn't really understand the basics of modern economics. This failure to understand has been the Achilles heel of the so-called "left" (whatever that is) for many years. As soon as people get to a realistic income they think they are well off and need to vote for a party that cuts taxes for them. I am not familiar with the economic policies of the Irish parties but here the default is the Tory party who people are stupid enough to vote for because they think they will cut taxes and Labour will increase them. I say stupid because these people are too dumb to realise the Tories have been blowing smoke up their arse for a generation. Like the imbecile Bush - "watch my lips - no new taxes" and then put tax, up the English "right" (whatever that is) puts up tax for the ordinary person in order to cut it for the super wealthy.

    It's easy do do when people are financially illiterate like 99% of the population. Cut direct taxes and put up indirect tax for example. (Thatcher). It's easy to do when the party have an undeserved reputation for financial management and people are stupid enough to believe the lies in the press. Check the data - every single Tory government since the war has increased spending and borrowing compared to the Labour government it replaced. The period of "austerity" through which we have just gone saw spending increased and borrowing increased. The poor got screwed the rich got minted. The average person paid more tax and is now responsible for more government debt to pass on to their kids.

    When did the UK last run a surplus? Errr... 2004 - Blair. But but but they didn't mend the roof when the sun was shining did they?

    i really think the old left/right thing has had it's day. All that matters now is whether or not the party concerned is going to address the #1 issue - climate change. Nothing else matters. This is the problem with what one might call the "old fashioned" left who are more concerned about social justice. Fair enough it is right to be concerned about it but it will mean chuff all if we are all dying from heat/thirst/skin cancer. At the last UK election we could have had the green new deal. It has a lot of holes in it and is far from perfect but it is a start. But bigotry and stupidity won the day and we have the filth that we have.

    I don't know if the shinners will make much difference to you guys but it is a welcome thing to see a break to the logjam of FF/FG and the status quo. if only there were a technology to transform rainfall into electric and you would have it made


 
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