Hello and welcome to our community! Is this your first visit?
Register
Page 1 of 11 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 103
  1. #1
    Established TDF Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Bedfordshire
    Posts
    2,707
    Likes (Given)
    795
    Likes (Received)
    1312

    Possible Chinese involvement in HS2

    I must admit I was rather concerned to read that the Chinese had offered to build HS2 in 5 years at far less cost. I've been on the Chinese Bullet train from Beijing to Xian and it gets its speed because the track is dead straight - they just cleared every obstruction out of the way to achieve this, including whole villages.

    However, it's the Chinese standards of construction that worry me. Xian station looks impressive but the drive up to it is restricted because of severe weight restrictions - coaches have to park half a mile away and passengers have to walk with their luggage. One of the other travellers on our tour of China was an Australian civil engineering lecturer and he was horrified to see that the steel reinforcing rods used for the concrete were only 10mm rather than the international standard of 20mm.

    At one stop, we were redirected to a new hotel (the hotel we were originally booked in had been commandeered at short notice by the local Communist Party for a conference) and when our coach drove up towards reception, it fell through the driveway - the paving slabs had been laid on dob and dab!

    As for safety equipment for the workers, no sign of any sort of PPE, no hard hats, dust masks, safety glasses or safety harnesses or safety rails even though men (and women) were working 60 or 70 feet up on top of pillars being constructed for flyovers.

    No wonder they think they could build HS2 quicker and cheaper. I wonder if they still think they could do that if they have to work to UK rules.

  2. #2
    Cheeky Monkey... Paul Evans's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Three Bridges
    Posts
    2,563
    Likes (Given)
    4168
    Likes (Received)
    1058
    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Carr View Post
    I must admit I was rather concerned to read that the Chinese had offered to build HS2 in 5 years at far less cost. I've been on the Chinese Bullet train from Beijing to Xian and it gets its speed because the track is dead straight - they just cleared every obstruction out of the way to achieve this, including whole villages.

    However, it's the Chinese standards of construction that worry me. Xian station looks impressive but the drive up to it is restricted because of severe weight restrictions - coaches have to park half a mile away and passengers have to walk with their luggage. One of the other travellers on our tour of China was an Australian civil engineering lecturer and he was horrified to see that the steel reinforcing rods used for the concrete were only 10mm rather than the international standard of 20mm.

    At one stop, we were redirected to a new hotel (the hotel we were originally booked in had been commandeered at short notice by the local Communist Party for a conference) and when our coach drove up towards reception, it fell through the driveway - the paving slabs had been laid on dob and dab!

    As for safety equipment for the workers, no sign of any sort of PPE, no hard hats, dust masks, safety glasses or safety harnesses or safety rails even though men (and women) were working 60 or 70 feet up on top of pillars being constructed for flyovers.

    No wonder they think they could build HS2 quicker and cheaper. I wonder if they still think they could do that if they have to work to UK rules.
    Its politics, lets get the Yanks even more stired up about Huawui
    “Attitude is a choice. Happiness is a choice. Optimism is a choice. Kindness is a choice. Giving is a choice. Respect is a choice. Whatever choice you make makes you. Choose wisely.”
    Roy T. Bennett, The Light in the Heart

  3. #3
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Poole
    Posts
    8,003
    Likes (Given)
    773
    Likes (Received)
    3551
    Why on earth would the Tories give money to UK workers? Of course the Chinese will build HS2. As to safety standards why do you think we voted for Brexit? We don't want any stinking health and safety nonsense.

    Jeez, what next? You will start some drivel about the environment. Paah.

  4. #4
    Established TDF Member steelemonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Too far from the sea!
    Posts
    9,766
    Likes (Given)
    2752
    Likes (Received)
    5645
    If the Chinese build HS2, what will the buffets be like? Great, I should think.
    Paul.
    If God had meant us to breathe underwater, he would have given us larger bank balances.
    Human beings were invented by water as a means of moving itself from one place to another.

  5. #5
    Established TDF Member Steve Clark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Lancaster, UK
    Posts
    2,666
    Likes (Given)
    256
    Likes (Received)
    1725
    People are right to be cautious about bringing different management methods & engineering to the UK. We have a history of being leaders in civils & structures. We’ve encountered problems decades before China and have developed regulations and codes to protect against them.

    However, we shouldn’t underestimate the rise of Chinese expertise. They have built long post-tensioned viaduct spans that need to be built to a very high standard to even stand up under their own weight. Also, anecdotal stuff shouldn’t be extrapolated to the proper engineered structures. There is no ‘international standard’ of 20mm rebar. Rebar is available in (6),8,10,12,16,20,25,32,40,(50)mm and in different grades of yield strength, ductility and weldability. Well designed, efficient structures use all different sizes. You will regularly see structures in the UK with far too much rebar in. This is done to save analysis time and simplify the need for proper inspection. It adds to cost at the contractor level. It can actually be dangerous to over-reinforce, creating structures that fail suddenly in shear, rather than progressive plastic bending.

    I find it unlikely that a structure is unsafe to take the weight of a coach. They are some of the lightest vehicles on the road (per m2). A crowd of people weighs considerably more.

    Personally, I hope there is a compromise here where we can take advantage of some of the Chinese efficiency and speed, whilst bringing their H&S up to UK standards and material quality up to German standards.

  6. #6
    Remember, remember Adrian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Exeter
    Posts
    2,081
    Likes (Given)
    1123
    Likes (Received)
    819
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Clark View Post
    People are right to be cautious about bringing different management methods & engineering to the UK. We have a history of being leaders in civils & structures. We’ve encountered problems decades before China and have developed regulations and codes to protect against them.

    However, we shouldn’t underestimate the rise of Chinese expertise. They have built long post-tensioned viaduct spans that need to be built to a very high standard to even stand up under their own weight. Also, anecdotal stuff shouldn’t be extrapolated to the proper engineered structures. There is no ‘international standard’ of 20mm rebar. Rebar is available in (6),8,10,12,16,20,25,32,40,(50)mm and in different grades of yield strength, ductility and weldability. Well designed, efficient structures use all different sizes. You will regularly see structures in the UK with far too much rebar in. This is done to save analysis time and simplify the need for proper inspection. It adds to cost at the contractor level. It can actually be dangerous to over-reinforce, creating structures that fail suddenly in shear, rather than progressive plastic bending.

    I find it unlikely that a structure is unsafe to take the weight of a coach. They are some of the lightest vehicles on the road (per m2). A crowd of people weighs considerably more.

    Personally, I hope there is a compromise here where we can take advantage of some of the Chinese efficiency and speed, whilst bringing their H&S up to UK standards and material quality up to German standards.
    I suspect the Chinese are now aware of all the current hoops to go though to move people and animals. They're used to turfing people off the land for the benefit of the state. 1m people moved IIRC for the 3 Gorges Dams project.

    Given the cost of materials, more time on analysis to save on materials would be cheap. https://www.newcivilengineer.com/lat...on-18-06-2019/
    Mah Ną Mah Ną

  7. #7
    Established TDF Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Bedfordshire
    Posts
    2,707
    Likes (Given)
    795
    Likes (Received)
    1312
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Clark View Post
    People are right to be cautious about bringing different management methods & engineering to the UK. We have a history of being leaders in civils & structures. We’ve encountered problems decades before China and have developed regulations and codes to protect against them.

    However, we shouldn’t underestimate the rise of Chinese expertise. They have built long post-tensioned viaduct spans that need to be built to a very high standard to even stand up under their own weight. Also, anecdotal stuff shouldn’t be extrapolated to the proper engineered structures. There is no ‘international standard’ of 20mm rebar. Rebar is available in (6),8,10,12,16,20,25,32,40,(50)mm and in different grades of yield strength, ductility and weldability. Well designed, efficient structures use all different sizes. You will regularly see structures in the UK with far too much rebar in. This is done to save analysis time and simplify the need for proper inspection. It adds to cost at the contractor level. It can actually be dangerous to over-reinforce, creating structures that fail suddenly in shear, rather than progressive plastic bending.

    I find it unlikely that a structure is unsafe to take the weight of a coach. They are some of the lightest vehicles on the road (per m2). A crowd of people weighs considerably more.

    Personally, I hope there is a compromise here where we can take advantage of some of the Chinese efficiency and speed, whilst bringing their H&S up to UK standards and material quality up to German standards.
    The problem with Chinese construction is the dubious quality control. A university friend of mine was a civil engineer who spent some years working in China and he said that often the design was fine but the standard of implementation left a lot to be desired. Our guide out there said that corruption was a major problem and that the collapse of several modern buildings was down to the use of inferior materials and failing to comply with Chinese building standards.

    The Australian Civil Engineer on our tour was commenting on the use of thin rebar in a specific application, in this case a flyover, where he said 20mm rebar would have been the norm. He also pointed out poor casting on the concrete where air bubbles were clearly visible.

    In the case of the driveway up to Xian station, I can assure you that coaches were banned and only a limited number of vehicles are allowed. We had to move our cases half a mile in the pouring rain to the coach park. Apparently cracks had been discovered in the structure soon after it opened.

  8. #8
    Established TDF Member Steve Clark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Lancaster, UK
    Posts
    2,666
    Likes (Given)
    256
    Likes (Received)
    1725
    There are undoubtably some quality problems with some Chinese construction. There’s a massive amount of stuff being built and they probably don’t have proper control of everything. However, we do have to recognise that we can learn something from them, particularly with regard to speed and cost.

    In the 3 years of 2011, 2012 & 2013 the Chinese used more cement than the USA used in the entire 20th century. A century when the Americans essentially built all their major infrastructure. Most of the skyscrapers, concrete-paved highways, thousands of bridges, ports, big industry, airports, military stuff & the hoover dam.
    Last edited by Steve Clark; 16-02-2020 at 07:18 PM.

  9. #9
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Poole
    Posts
    8,003
    Likes (Given)
    773
    Likes (Received)
    3551
    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Carr View Post
    The problem with Chinese construction is the dubious quality control. ...corruption was a major problem ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Clark View Post
    There are undoubtably some quality problems with some Chinese construction. There’s a massive amount of stuff being built and they probably don’t have proper control of everything. However, we do have to recognise that we can learn something from them, particularly with regard to speed and cost. ...
    Agreed, but UK building is no different.

    https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/new...dards-17633511

    https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/news...ulations-55445

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/20...built-so-badly

    Corruption is just as much a feature of the UK market. Standards are widely ignored here too.

  10. #10
    Established TDF Member Steve Clark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Lancaster, UK
    Posts
    2,666
    Likes (Given)
    256
    Likes (Received)
    1725
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    Agreed, but UK building is no different.

    https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/new...dards-17633511

    https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/news...ulations-55445

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/20...built-so-badly

    Corruption is just as much a feature of the UK market. Standards are widely ignored here too.
    It is very unusual for a major structure to collapse in the UK. The reason is because our structural engineers do not routinely engineer structures down to be particularity efficient. Even when people break standards, make mistakes or cut corners they don't fall down. On one hand this is safe. On the other hand, quality of design or construction doesn't get the attention it deserves and we are paying far too much in material for over-designed things.

    I worked on a building in central Manchester with a large ground floor slab, essentially the lid to a basement. The consultant designed the slab to UK standards. i.e. it would carry at least 1.4x the weight of itself + 1.6x the largest ever load likely to be imposed on it from people, shop fit-out, vehicles etc., whilst also applying safety factors to allow for inconsistent materials. They then took this worse case condition and made that the standard solution across the whole area to make detailing easier. Just before we were due to build it, they had encountered some unexplained cracking on another similar structure in the city. They had no time left to properly analyse it so they increased the rebar size of every bar in the slab by 1 size. A very quick and cheap exercise done using excel(!) in an afternoon. This alone doubled the quantity of steel in the slab. Overall, that slab has 3x the amount of steel in it to meet UK standards and 5x as much as it needs to stand up under any normal loads it is likely to encounter.


 
Page 1 of 11 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •