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  1. #91
    Established TDF Member Tel's Avatar
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    A club is a group of individuals doing what the majority in that club want to do.
    If they do not, the club fails or the hierachy is domocraticly voted out and it all starts again.

    So if you don't like what that club does, they couldnt give a s*it as they know you would not fit in with them anyway.
    If they are a bunch of old crusties doing dives they want to do, what's it got to do with you? they are happy
    If all they do is train, fine again so what that's there choice.
    If they are happy doing loads of tech stuff again wnat's it got to do with any rec newbies that want in who would
    find all this way OOT if not very intimidating.

    BSAC are made up of a massive variance of clubs and not just two, just about the only thing they have in common
    is wanting to keep the existing membership happy and not change that just because anyone even BSAC themsleves
    say so.

    I'm sure many (even those that comment on here who have never been in BSAC) think iwe are all about BSAC holding
    hands or giving a salute to Elsemere Port, when the reality is that the vast majority in BSAC very much see the
    branch first and BSAC second. Sure we support and want BSAC to do well, but if they went down or didn't do what our
    own particular branch wanted we'd switch agencies in a heartbeat.

    Once you understand branch first (+ the variety in that branch) and BSAC second, it's easier to understand how difficult
    it can be for BSAC using a common goal to gel the branches when for many that common goal does not exist.

  2. #92
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tel View Post
    A club is a group of individuals doing what the majority in that club want to do.
    Can be, but some are a group of individuals doing what a clique want to do or doing nowt. After a while it becomes just the clique and then it is as you describe it (the majority).




    Quote Originally Posted by Tel View Post
    Once you understand branch first (+ the variety in that branch) and BSAC second, it's easier to understand how difficult
    it can be for BSAC using a common goal to gel the branches when for many that common goal does not exist.
    Agreed. But The BS-AC is an umbrella organisation that simply reacts to the membership. As such it has only the goal of promoting the pastime of diving. (A worthy enough goal if you like diving). Each affiliated club can and should take that which it needs and contribute accordingly. The BS-AC offers a recognised training system but accepts divers that have not taken part in it. Some clubs fail to see that and see the BSAC training program as definitive - it is not. There is the matter of insurance and the magazine as well. There are plenty of clubs that are not affiliated to BSAC and are happy not to be.

  3. #93
    Established TDF Member Wardy_uk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wibs View Post
    BSAC’s challenges are the huge variability in the constituent clubs
    But BSAC isnt the individual clubs... each club is just that - an individual club... it has been affiliated to BSAC, and has adopted BSACs training - but it is still an individual club....

    edit... what Tel said
    Last edited by Wardy_uk; 18-11-2019 at 01:55 PM.

  4. #94
    Established TDF Member Tel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    Can be, but some are a group of individuals doing what a clique want to do or doing nowt. After a while it becomes just the clique and then it is as you describe it (the majority).
    Yep that's democracy for you

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    Agreed. But The BS-AC is an umbrella organisation that simply reacts to the membership. As such it has only the goal of promoting the pastime of diving. (A worthy enough goal if you like diving). Each affiliated club can and should take that which it needs and contribute accordingly. The BS-AC offers a recognised training system but accepts divers that have not taken part in it. Some clubs fail to see that and see the BSAC training program as definitive - it is not. There is the matter of insurance and the magazine as well. There are plenty of clubs that are not affiliated to BSAC and are happy not to be.
    They are getting better, but i'd hardly say they react to the membership, more start to move when the outcry gets deafining
    or react when it effects one of the heirachy directly.

    The goal of diving is a laudible one and a nice soundbite for PR and great if you are a branch that has that as the prime motive,
    but that should not in anyway exclude other branches that don't have that as the prime directive. Again if a club sees the
    training program as definative that's there democratic choice same as it is for a club not to be affiliated at all with BSAC.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tel View Post
    Yep cynical.

    All the UK amatuer agencies went the Instructor vs mentoring route around the same time and had nowt to do with dosh.
    A jump before being pushed moment as UK authorities were getting very twitchy. This was used as an excuse by thoe die-hards
    who thought a one or two day attendance only course was beneath them, they'd happlly carry on as before, but ask to change - nah.
    Unfortunately, it wasn't just a one or two day course, it was start from square one with multiple courses. Our club had a lot a lot of people who had been actively involved in training for years or even decades and when they were told that, most simply said to hell with that, we'll just go diving. If BSAC had arranged a simplified system for those who already had the experience, (like they did with the twinset course), they would have had a lot more instructors.

  6. #96
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    Our club went down the route of just having diving members and perhaps training one or two Ocean Divers per year, most of whom simply went off to do warm water diving. As a result, membership was falling rapidly and the club was on the verge of going under because we couldn't get enough together to mount a decent diving trip. We launched a recruitment drive, revamping our website and targeting families with teenage kids, promoting diving as an exciting family activity. We also introduced payment by instalments which has made it a lot more affordable for families. This has been very successful and membership has more than doubled. Even more encouraging is that a high proportion of these are buying drysuits with the intention of doing UK diving.

    What we are also doing is making sure that all new members have a development plan to gain new skills, using more experienced members to mentor them, instead of just stopping at OD which was happening before. This way we are building up an active core of divers. It has taken a lot of hard work on the part of the instructors to get the new members through their basic training (I've done over 30 open water training dives this year including Stoney 4 times in 10 days and that's a 150 mile round trip for us) but the 'crusties' can see the benefit of helping the newer members so that we can organise more interesting dive trips and the club really has turned the corner.

  7. #97
    Established TDF Member Tel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Carr View Post
    Unfortunately, it wasn't just a one or two day course, it was start from square one with multiple courses. Our club had a lot a lot of people who had been actively involved in training for years or even decades and when they were told that, most simply said to hell with that, we'll just go diving. If BSAC had arranged a simplified system for those who already had the experience, (like they did with the twinset course), they would have had a lot more instructors.
    Not sure how more simple and accessable they could have made it, BSAC fell over themselves at the
    time to provide Grandad rites and for most it was 2 days on an IDC and one day on the CIE if that.

    Yes some said to hell with it, but it's not like there is a list of active and non-activeand the active ones
    were in the main those that had enough of an altruistic motive to do the course/exam.

    I'm sure there were some that fell through the gap and were genuinly upset and didn't carry on, but
    once the non-active and those that did carry on are taken out of the equation I'd say this wasn't a massive
    number.

    Either way at the end of it those Instructors were now current and BSAC could honestly say that all training
    was via vetted Instructors, something they could not say before, which was entirely the point of the whole
    exercise.

  8. #98
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    It's always good to remember that the British Sub Aqua Club was originally set up to sell kit.

  9. #99
    I've got a semi by the sea Scuttler's Avatar
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    Returning to the OP.

    I know it's been a while......

    I'm a BSAC OWI and a PADI DM. I've trained with TDI in ANDP.

    The critical thing with diving is depth control and gas management. The only syllabus that has a defined standard for the former is TDI and that to me is scandalous.

    BSAC have the Bouyancy Control SDC but that to me should be a defacto standard. If you can't hold a 6M stop to within +/- 0.5M then you don't qualify.

    I watch various PADI and BSAC clubs teaching skills kneeling on the floor and am appalled. Proper bouyancy control is a keystone skill and one that people should not be able to progress without but I see so many divers that are newly qualified without this basic skill.

    I confess, I was once that diver but through mixing with divers with a more polished skillset I learned to demand a greater skillset from myself and those I dive with. It was only through seeking trainers that demanded higher standards that I learned how to progress.

    I think PADI and BSAC both have great teaching methodolgies but i think they both need to introduce a bouyancy standard at entry level and it needs to be fairly rigid.

    My 2p for what it's worth

  10. #100
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    I agree that buoyancy is an absolutely key skill and it's something that I concentrate on even when doing a Try-Dive. It should be started as part of OS1 and refined in the following lessons.

    As far as the two PADI rescue divers that have joined us, neither have done Nitrox, gas planning, Deco, DSMB, SMB or navigation having achieved their qualifications with the easier options. I hadn't realised that there was quite so much choice in the PADI syllabus as to what skills had to be done to achieve a particular grade. Thanks to all who have provided feedback on this subject. We have had 6 PADI qualified divers join our club this year and I have developed a training program to fill in the gaps in their skills to bring them up to the equivalent BSAC level for their grade.


 
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