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  1. #31
    Established TDF Member Wardy_uk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edward3c View Post
    Whilst I understand where your coming from, I disagree.

    It’s up to the individual how and when they start training for the next level. [The whole reason Lead Instructors where given the authority to award diver grades]. If they’re good enough they will achieve the lesson standards and pass, if not they won’t.
    100% this... too many BSAC instructors add their own minimum requirements to training (and indeed, minimum standards, but that’s a different story)

    The only requirement for starting DL is to have passed SD (or equivalent) and to be over 14 (for anything sub 20m) end of.

  2. #32
    Established TDF Member Tel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wardy_uk View Post
    100% this... too many BSAC instructors add their own minimum requirements to training (and indeed, minimum standards, but that’s a different story)

    The only requirement for starting DL is to have passed SD (or equivalent) and to be over 14 (for anything sub 20m) end of.



    Duty of Care

    Snorkelling and SCUBA diving, like driving a car, are activities which are potentially dangerous if not conducted with due care. The general principles of liability at law for negligent conduct are therefore particularly applicable to these activities. For example, a diver might claim that he suffered lung damage because his diving buddy’s failure or refusal to share diving gas with him. Or a drowned diver's next of kin might claim that the death resulted as a consequence of the Dive Manager's failure to take proper precautions for the dive: or perhaps even as a result of allowing the dive to take place in dangerous conditions.

    Similarly, someone might sue an Instructor or Diving Officer for permitting a medically disqualified person to dive or for an injury carelessly caused during pool training.
    In each of these examples, the claim would be based on the principle that undertaking responsibility for the safety of another person involves the acceptance of a duty to exercise care towards that person, and accordingly to avoid causing harm through negligent behaviour. Obviously, the greater the responsibility, the greater the duty. This is a matter of particular concern to those who have the responsibility for training divers i.e., Diving Officers and Instructors, because proper training is, after all, the basis of safety.

  3. #33
    Established TDF Member Wardy_uk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tel View Post

    Duty of Care

    Snorkelling and SCUBA diving, like driving a car, are activities which are potentially dangerous if not conducted with due care. The general principles of liability at law for negligent conduct are therefore particularly applicable to these activities. For example, a diver might claim that he suffered lung damage because his diving buddy’s failure or refusal to share diving gas with him. Or a drowned diver's next of kin might claim that the death resulted as a consequence of the Dive Manager's failure to take proper precautions for the dive: or perhaps even as a result of allowing the dive to take place in dangerous conditions.

    Similarly, someone might sue an Instructor or Diving Officer for permitting a medically disqualified person to dive or for an injury carelessly caused during pool training.
    In each of these examples, the claim would be based on the principle that undertaking responsibility for the safety of another person involves the acceptance of a duty to exercise care towards that person, and accordingly to avoid causing harm through negligent behaviour. Obviously, the greater the responsibility, the greater the duty. This is a matter of particular concern to those who have the responsibility for training divers i.e., Diving Officers and Instructors, because proper training is, after all, the basis of safety.
    Yes - and there are a set of standards to measure the trainee against. They’re the ones published by BSAC.

    It’s not for you, or any other instructor to add to that.

  4. #34
    Established TDF Member Tel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wardy_uk View Post
    Yes - and there are a set of standards to measure the trainee against. They’re the ones published by BSAC.

    It’s not for you, or any other instructor to add to that.

    That was an extract from the BSAC Branch Officers Handbook

    The absolute rule is that we must not add or subtract from the syllabus, so once on the course lets dismiss any idea that
    we are making things up. This though is about prior to the course even starting and that's the start of duty of care.

    We have to ensure that the diver has signed the self-cert or has a medical, all the paperwork is right and any previous
    qualifications are logged, but if we are also aware that any skillbase they shoudl have is lacking, what then?
    We can advise (not force) them to do say a couple of pool sessions to brush up skills or we can even refuse to train then
    alltogether, but duty of care woudl be seriously lacking if we just ignored it.

    Need to seperate the idea of putting hoops in front of divers with a genuine duty of care and concern for there safety.
    Last edited by Tel; 14-11-2019 at 07:58 PM.

  5. #35
    Established TDF Member Wardy_uk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tel View Post
    That was an extract from the BSAC Branch Officers Handbook

    The absolute rule is that we must not add or subtract from the syllabus, so once on the course lets dismiss any idea that
    we are making things up. This though is about prior to the course even starting and that's the start of duty of care.

    We have to ensure that the diver has signed the self-cert or has a medical, all the paperwork is right and any previous
    qualifications are logged, but if we are also aware that any skillbase they shoudl have is lacking, what then?
    We can advise (not force) them to do say a couple of pool sessions to brush up skills or we can even refuse to train then
    alltogether, but duty of care woudl be seriously lacking if we just ignored it.

    Need to seperate the idea of putting hoops in front of divers with a genuine duty of care and concern for there safety.
    Agreed... but the minimum standards are quite clear. For DL, that’s to have passed SD, or equivalent, and be 14+ . What I’m objecting to is additional requirements being added, eg an instructor thinking they don’t have enough dives... at the end of the day, you *can* start DL with just 10 dives... I’d argue they’d struggle to meet lessons standards in some cases, but that’s the minimum standards ... if they are at sports diver level, they should be allowed to start DL... if they’re not at a level ready to start DL, then maybe the prior training was insufficient?

    If they meet the requirements of the lesson, again clearly defined, that gets signed off.

  6. #36
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    There are certain skills in DL such as DSMB deployment in mid-water which presume an existing level of skill in DSMB deployment. If the candidate doesn't have this basic skill, you can't expect them to be able to carry out the DL level skill. That's why I'm trying to find out what areas of SD training that aren't covered by PADI training up to RD level so that these gaps can be filled.

    It's not a case of not accepting existing qualifications, it's a matter of making sure that the trainee has the appropriate skill base to successfully complete the DL course.

  7. #37
    Established TDF Member Wardy_uk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Carr View Post

    It's not a case of not accepting existing qualifications, it's a matter of making sure that the trainee has the appropriate skill base to successfully complete the DL course.
    To start the course, surely?

    Which means sports diver equivalent and therefore a minimum of only 10 dives

  8. #38
    I used to be Cheeky UnCheeky Monkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wardy_uk View Post
    Yes - and there are a set of standards to measure the trainee against. They’re the ones published by BSAC.

    It’s not for you, or any other instructor to add to that.
    I disagree - if someone is not safe to do something, regardless of what their card says, that comes first

    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Carr View Post
    There are certain skills in DL such as DSMB deployment in mid-water which presume an existing level of skill in DSMB deployment. If the candidate doesn't have this basic skill, you can't expect them to be able to carry out the DL level skill. That's why I'm trying to find out what areas of SD training that aren't covered by PADI training up to RD level so that these gaps can be filled.
    this was exactly my situation - salted across to SD, but with some gaps - my club identified them, plugged them, and moved on - job done

    in the course of doing it they also had a look at me before exposing someone else to me as their buddy

  9. #39
    Established TDF Member Wardy_uk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnCheeky Monkey View Post
    I disagree - if someone is not safe to do something, regardless of what their card says, that comes first

    If they’re not safe - they clearly don’t meet the standards...

    I’m not advocating blindly accepting the current qualifications at face value, just saying the standards are in black and white, and should be arbitrarily inflated at the whim of the instructor

  10. #40
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    Out of curiosity, what sort of cost is it to do a DL course?


 
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