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  1. #31
    Not short, just concentrated awesome ;) smileydiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iain/hsm View Post
    Ok getting back to the OP original question of the "Cylinders" trim in the water.

    It should also be noted that before Aluminium scuba cylinders for sports divers were first introduced.
    They were generally only available to the military in the form of a twin set called a SABRE set designed for the Royal Navy
    Then when the rules were set in place for the public use of aluminium cylinders one key detail in the rules was that the
    piller valve was to be made from the same materiel as the cylinder AKA like the SABRE set.

    Hence originally as the piller valve was made of aluminium like the cylinder, and the "trim" being part of the original engineering design
    then you would have had an engineered trim better than you have today now that heaver CZ122 Stamped Brass material is used .
    That was a very interesting response, thank you!
    The sea, once it casts its spell, holds one in its net of wonder forever - Jacques Cousteau

  2. #32
    Not short, just concentrated awesome ;) smileydiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulo View Post
    I understand where you are coming from Pete. The new-fangled constant drive to tabletop flatness in the water never ceases to amaze me.

    I often see divers ridiculed back on a boat because they were spotted out of trim. If you can hold a depth, not kick up the vis and can be safe in the water, does it matter that your knees were 2cms lower than your chin?
    This. Good buoyancy and trim are of course important but some do get rather obsessive about it. I dive to go see critters, I don't need to spend the entire dive with my hands out in front of me like a frozen statue Each to their own though!
    The sea, once it casts its spell, holds one in its net of wonder forever - Jacques Cousteau

  3. #33
    Dive tart, and 'tog Pete Bullen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smileydiver View Post
    This. Good buoyancy and trim are of course important but some do get rather obsessive about it. I dive to go see critters, I don't need to spend the entire dive with my hands out in front of me like a frozen statue Each to their own though!
    My point exactly, I see so many people swimming around looking like thunderbird puppets, more worried about how they look than what they are seeing. It's an obsession too far IMO.
    Diving, and photography holidays in Gozo
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  4. #34
    M.D., Beaver Sports (Yorks) Ltd
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    God help us, maybe we can blame it on Brexit;<)

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by iain/hsm View Post
    I agree but the end user, you lot dont get a chance to make any difference, you go by the LDS or the cheapest price on the net.

    Let me give you another example of mass (weight) for three identical aluminium cylinders.
    All three designs are to the same Pressure Equipment Directive design code
    All three are exactly the same internal volume 2L,
    All three are exactly designed identical for the same working pressure 200 bar (300 bar test)
    All three are exactly the same diameter, and length +/- 10mm
    All three have a M25x 2 thread
    All three are identical to manufacture, inspect hydro, valve, paint etc

    The first one is the cheapest and weighs 2.6 kilos
    The second is more expensive and weighs 2.4 kilos
    The third is the most expensive and weighs 1.9 kilos

    The penlty of a 10 in material choice difference
    Now guess which material is bought by your scuba distributors

    Like I said the 10 difference for the dive shop Vs ignorance of the diver not to be aware of the difference
    Utter rubbish hidden by hyperbole as per usual. Faber light weight cylinders are lighter because of a more expensive manufacturing process (controlling thickness and therefore excess material in the base), which makes them head heavy compared to eurocylinder whose cheaper manufacturing process gives a thicker base, less control (you can see cylinders weight varying as a result) but some would argue favourable trim. No idea on costs to buy (either as distributor or customer) as that is controlled by many factors. But since Ian is the only one allowed to make a living out of diving we’ll just have to assume that #momandpopslatwall are cheating you either way.
    Last edited by graham_hk; 10-08-2019 at 12:44 PM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Bullen View Post
    My point exactly, I see so many people swimming around looking like thunderbird puppets, more worried about how they look than what they are seeing. It's an obsession too far IMO.
    I couldn't agree more - its shocking situation and arguably my agency is up there with the best of them in this respect. I simply have no time for anybody who'd like to talk about "trim on deco" rather than the wreck and refuse to dive a puddle and see nothing to practise.

  7. #37
    M.D., Beaver Sports (Yorks) Ltd
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    Quote Originally Posted by graham_hk View Post
    Utter rubbish hidden by hyperbole as per usual. Faber light weight cylinders are lighter because of a more expensive manufacturing process (controlling thickness and therefore excess material in the base), which makes them head heavy compared to eurocylinder whose cheaper manufacturing process gives a thicker base, less control (you can see cylinders weight varying as a result) but some would argue favourable trim. No idea on costs to buy (either as distributor or customer) as that is controlled by many factors. But since Ian is the only one allowed to make a living out of diving we’ll just have to assume that #momandpopslatwall are cheating you either way.
    Having visited and seen the manufacturing processes at both Eurocylinder and Faber, I am intrigued as to one can be classed as a cheaper process, as I wouldn't have thought it really made much difference. As you will know Faber are 'extruded' and made by basically pile driving a flat steel disc and hammering away at it until it becomes long enough to form the chosen size cylinder and amazing to watch! Then with the top welded on. Eurocylinder are made from relevant sized tube, where I would imagine the thickness precision would be higher than extrusion, and then weld on a top and a bottom, so presume that the separate base section must be thicker than when basically smashed out!! As you know there is a third method, which is rolled that I think old IWKA and Heiser Cylinders were made in this way. I really do not know what all the fuss is about regarding a tiny bit of weight being in a particular position. Back when I used to do literally hundreds of dives a year, we just simply got on with it and didn't really notice any difference in comfort or enjoyment. My view now is that so many are spending far too much time concentrating on minor unnecessary details rather than the important matters such as enjoying your dive;<) I'm sure you will know that cylinders have always been a vey low profit margin product for both the importer/distributor and retailers alike, the biggest factor in recent times is more than likely when the Euros or Dollars were bought and how many to the Pound. On that subject, I was always amazed that Italians Faber always wanted paying in Belgian Francs before the Euro came out!!

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by MW1963 View Post
    Having visited and seen the manufacturing processes at both Eurocylinder and Faber, I am intrigued as to one can be classed as a cheaper process, as I wouldn't have thought it really made much difference. As you will know Faber are 'extruded' and made by basically pile driving a flat steel disc and hammering away at it until it becomes long enough to form the chosen size cylinder and amazing to watch! Then with the top welded on. Eurocylinder are made from relevant sized tube, where I would imagine the thickness precision would be higher than extrusion, and then weld on a top and a bottom, so presume that the separate base section must be thicker than when basically smashed out!! As you know there is a third method, which is rolled that I think old IWKA and Heiser Cylinders were made in this way. I really do not know what all the fuss is about regarding a tiny bit of weight being in a particular position. Back when I used to do literally hundreds of dives a year, we just simply got on with it and didn't really notice any difference in comfort or enjoyment. My view now is that so many are spending far too much time concentrating on minor unnecessary details rather than the important matters such as enjoying your dive;<) I'm sure you will know that cylinders have always been a vey low profit margin product for both the importer/distributor and retailers alike, the biggest factor in recent times is more than likely when the Euros or Dollars were bought and how many to the Pound. On that subject, I was always amazed that Italians Faber always wanted paying in Belgian Francs before the Euro came out!!
    Just going on what zee Germans told me - faber method is more controlled - it makes sense more expensive. The the slatwall police will be along to tell us we are all wrong later on,

  9. #39
    M.D., Beaver Sports (Yorks) Ltd
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    Quote Originally Posted by graham_hk View Post
    Just going on what zee Germans told me - faber method is more controlled - it makes sense more expensive. The the slatwall police will be along to tell us we are all wrong later on,
    Wow zer Germans giving praise to the Eyeties, whatever next;<) didn't think there were any real difference in price between Faber and Eurocylinder, mind you not looked at Fabers direct prices for a few year. The market for Concave cylinders has not surprisingly turned out generally to be yet another White Elephant!!


 
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