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  1. #11
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    Many thanks for all the replies and advice. In a way its good to see some slightly differing opinions so it doesn't feel like a stupid question - although some things seem very obvious when written down that I should have done - having a more in-depth discussion with the instructor for one to see how accommodating he can be - maybe he can gage interest for a course catering for BP/W wearers. As I'm in no rush this might be a good option, taking differing kit out of the equation for teaching + I'll be training in the kit I'm going to wear + I'll be getting local training and from a recommended instructor. At least my pocket packing is up to scratch!!

  2. #12
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    Does this depend on one's opinion about the point of a course?

    On one side there's taking a course as part of a 'system' that encourages mediocrity.

    On the other there's taking a course for its utility and self development -- the thinking diver.

    Personally, I can't see the point of doing a course like that if the students can't handle other kit configurations (even that stupid i3). If students can't handle differing kit configurations they probably aren't ready and need more 'self development'.

  3. #13
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    I'm happy for my Rescue students to use the kit they dive in.

    However:

    Others on the course may never have seen a BP/W with long hose, so getting them to lean how to get you out of that rather than a jacket can b e counter productive.

    So: For the confined and basic principles I get everyone into Jackets. After that then I'll introduce other kit (So your rig). Because Side Mount is popular here, I throw that into the mix, so everyone gets experience with victims in different gear. I even lash up a basic harness so student can practice cutting someone out of it

    In say the panicked OOA diver where you're the rescuer then absolutely you need to be in your rig, to practice how you'll deal with the situation, as well as finding deficiencies with your rig or the way you might need to adapt


    In my mind, Rescue isn't about learning to complete each skill to perfection, the real benefit is when a scenario turns into a CF, we can stop and discuss and throw around solutions, then go again

    I want my students at the end of the course, to understand the basic principles and then be able to use them to solve a situation under pressure. The biggest lessons are those during each debrief where the students admit to themselves that if they'd have done XYor Z things would have been different. Which generally comes down always to stop and think first. We're very good at introducing curved balls and winding up the pressure in a safe manner

  4. #14
    Cheeky Monkey... Paul Evans's Avatar
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    +1

    surely this isn't rocket science!
    “Attitude is a choice. Happiness is a choice. Optimism is a choice. Kindness is a choice. Giving is a choice. Respect is a choice. Whatever choice you make makes you. Choose wisely.”
    Roy T. Bennett, The Light in the Heart

  5. #15
    Established TDF Member Tel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wibs View Post
    Does this depend on one's opinion about the point of a course?

    On one side there's taking a course as part of a 'system' that encourages mediocrity.

    On the other there's taking a course for its utility and self development -- the thinking diver.

    Personally, I can't see the point of doing a course like that if the students can't handle other kit configurations (even that stupid i3). If students can't handle differing kit configurations they probably aren't ready and need more 'self development'.


    It depends on the opinion from the POV of the student/diver vs the POV of the school.
    What may seem to the student/diver clear-cut, doesn't necessarily translate to the best method of learning.

    The argument is not about any particular rig, it's if given a finite amount of time what is the most effect method
    of teaching. GUE have it right (excuse the pun) in that the course is most efficient if done on the same rig and config.
    Most dive schools use a standard BC/Octo setup while a handful even run wings etc. All these work on the same
    principal of a common rig that enables a standard protocol to be used. Students struggling with time critical and in the
    case of rescue, stressful thought processes often rely on fellow students and Instructors for visual guidance, so in this
    environment same always works better.

    What it comes down to in the end is time.

    Given twice the time i'd have no qualms teaching on a variety of kit as both the principals of rescue protocol and
    exposure to other variants all work together. If though restricted to just the standard course length then all the same
    kit and instil that mantra of never stop reviewing/learning

    No good spouting rhetoric or sound bites as to what should/shouldn't happen without taking into account that this is
    a paid for course with a set time limit.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tel View Post
    No good spouting rhetoric or sound bites as to what should/shouldn't happen without taking into account that this is
    a paid for course with a set time limit.
    When you say time limit, what exactly do you mean? Padi don't set a time limit. They have a set of dives that must be completed in full and a minimum, but that's all. If it takes more/longer, it takes more/longer. Do you mean time limit from a business perspective? If so, I'd recommend finding a different location to do the course.

  7. #17
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    I totally agree that there's time constraints to a course.

    However, won't a rescue course taught in 'standard' kit result in a bunch of people who can't deal with the vagaries of the real world?

    I'll completely concede that 'most' people dive in 'standard' jacket BCD+single and that rescues will tend to be of people who are inexperienced, therefore almost certainly wearing 'standard' kit.


    Still a special place in hell for the i3.

  8. #18
    Established TDF Member Tel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jturner View Post
    When you say time limit, what exactly do you mean? Padi don't set a time limit. They have a set of dives that must be completed in full and a minimum, but that's all. If it takes more/longer, it takes more/longer. Do you mean time limit from a business perspective? If so, I'd recommend finding a different location to do the course.
    I mean the set time to complete the required standard, usually 4 days.

    Most outfits build in a degree of latitude for the odd one or two that struggle and may do some extra time gratis,
    but it's a business after all and if it goes past that it may well be another day at cost or even a day at full retail.

    Sure some schools have a more altruistic approach than others, but in the end 1:1 with an Instructor for an extra
    day will have a cost.

  9. #19
    Established TDF Member Tel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wibs View Post
    I totally agree that there's time constraints to a course.

    However, won't a rescue course taught in 'standard' kit result in a bunch of people who can't deal with the vagaries of the real world?

    I'll completely concede that 'most' people dive in 'standard' jacket BCD+single and that rescues will tend to be of people who are inexperienced, therefore almost certainly wearing 'standard' kit.


    Still a special place in hell for the i3.

    The whole point is to instill a mantra that this is a sanitised version of events and it's likely to be very different
    if it happens for real and need to adapt and deal with it. So even if a course is done on a BC and not an own wing
    or the other way around if you like, that doesn't mean the same diver is unable to put what he learned to test and
    work out what he needs to do.

    This is PADI so eg: this course will be the first time a diver has done a CBL despite being 30m (or even 40m) rated
    and on the third course. Compare that with some other outfits who by now will have done this at entry level already.

    Weirdly despite having done it at entry, 2nd and 3rd level all with same basic kit, the switch to twins, stages
    even RB is not a problem as the principle of ANY change = a potential change in rescue.

    By far the most important part of any rescue course is the absolute that ANY change in ANY sphere needs re-evaluation.
    Last edited by Tel; 04-06-2019 at 01:13 PM.

  10. #20
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    I remember back to my Rescue Diver course with great fondness. Learned loads and the (UK LDS) people couldn't have been more helpful and instructive. Lots of people I've spoken to about the Rescue Diver course have said it's the best course they did with PADI. I'll completely agree.

    The important thing is to not rush into it. You do need to be ready to take the course with reasonable core skills, i.e. you don't struggle with those skills whilst performing all the rescue tasks.


 
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