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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by NWdiver View Post
    There's a chemist around the corner from me that seems to have a sideline in homeopathy. I'm sure he could make a similar claim... Doesn't mean anything worked though.

    You can safely probably claim that your product adds an extra layer of filtration. That surely can't be a bad thing. Although not having a negative effect doesn't mean it has a positive effect.

    Not sure you can go much further than that. I know people who have filled cylinders religiously from dodgy little compressors in there workshop next to an A-road. I know people that will only use the triple filtered nitrox friendly stuff at the expensive gas station. I don't see any correlation between the length of life of cylinders.

    I'm not saying contamination is good... but does it reduce the life of a cylinder.

    I'm not entirely sure what your product actually does. I'm not entirely sure that you know what your product actually does.
    The guy filling from his dodgy compressor in the workshop will have cylinders that last longer as he's not fuckin about with that dodgy "testing" thing where they blow them right up to 380 bar!

  2. #52
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    On more sensible note particles entering cylinder won't do a damn thing to the lifespan of them.
    Only thing that will shorten the life dramatically is moisture, and that's more down to the coalescers and molecular sieve on the main filters than the add on things.


    I'm not convinced the personal filters are big enough to take out all the shit that for example getting the first fill off a compressor when they haven't flushed through the filters from last time will punt out.

  3. #53
    "Three Sheds" Janos's Avatar
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    Here's my set-up. I have a Coltri compressor. The water-separator removes a lot of the moisture in the air [1], but it can only do so much. The main filter on the Coltri should remove the rest of the moisture but I'm nervous about it and worry that it's up to the job. I've therefore change the media in the main filter tower more often than recommended which I think means it should be ok. However I also have a secondary stack (from MDE) because I'm a belt and braces sort of person.

    I also have one of the moisture eyes that Iain recommends and he's absolutely correct with his recommendation. They are great, but someone in the UK should stock the 10/20/30 indicator cards.

    Janos




    [1] Imagine some 1000 litres of air at 30% humidity. Compress it to 200bar and you have 5 litres of air at 6000% humidity. 6000% humidity is impossible, so 59/60ths of that will drop out leaving you with 5 litres of air at 100% humidity. When that expands to 1 bar again you have 1000 litres of air at 0.5% humidity.
    You can lead a horse to water but you can't climb a ladder with a large bell in both hands - Vic Reeves
    Hellfins - a friendly London dive club
    My music video: Dive the UK, cos that's the way it is. Huh!

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janos View Post
    Here's my set-up. I have a Coltri compressor. The water-separator removes a lot of the moisture in the air [1], but it can only do so much. The main filter on the Coltri should remove the rest of the moisture but I'm nervous about it and worry that it's up to the job. I've therefore change the media in the main filter tower more often than recommended which I think means it should be ok. However I also have a secondary stack (from MDE) because I'm a belt and braces sort of person.

    I also have one of the moisture eyes that Iain recommends and he's absolutely correct with his recommendation. They are great, but someone in the UK should stock the 10/20/30 indicator cards.

    Janos




    [1] Imagine some 1000 litres of air at 30% humidity. Compress it to 200bar and you have 5 litres of air at 6000% humidity. 6000% humidity is impossible, so 59/60ths of that will drop out leaving you with 5 litres of air at 100% humidity. When that expands to 1 bar again you have 1000 litres of air at 0.5% humidity.
    Any chance of a few pics of your filtration set up?

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janos View Post
    [1] Imagine some 1000 litres of air at 30% humidity. Compress it to 200bar and you have 5 litres of air at 6000% humidity. 6000% humidity is impossible, so 59/60ths of that will drop out leaving you with 5 litres of air at 100% humidity. When that expands to 1 bar again you have 1000 litres of air at 0.5% humidity.
    Assuming 20 degrees C, that's about 17 ml of water to drop out, and you've only filled a pony.

    Just to illustrate how much work the coalescers and filter is having to do on the air.

  6. #56
    Established TDF Member Paulo's Avatar
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    Where do you get the moisture indicators?
    Remember anything you read on the internet was probably written by some guy sitting at home in his underpants! Including this !!

    Illegitimi non carborundum

  7. #57
    TDF Member uncertainplume's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iain/hsm View Post
    I cannot recommend these High Pressure In line visual indicators enough. For years we have tried to get them incorporated into every compressor used for breathing gasses.
    Yet in the UK you can count on one hand the number of visual indicators used by local dive shops even less used by local clubs. Yet you have to go to America and they are all the rage. Maybe I should do a TDF special price like we did with the Christo-Lube MCG111 or start a web site and buy lot's of slat wall

    Engineered to the highest mechanical standard with a 414 bar working pressure and a 4:1 Safety factor to meet UK offshore requirements. A visual viewport capable of withstanding 30,000 psi pressure and a fail safe design that extrudes the case o-ring at the 2068 Bar pressure point of failure. Using a super hardened Alloy, a military grade hard anodising
    and a machined viewport that ensures crystal clear optical clarity, With no moving parts and Viton aircraft grade O-rings with compound number, and cure date of manufacture.

    Who can resist such an engineering feat. Everyone apparently (apart from the Yanks.)
    But they are not liked by the compressor manufacturers who prefer to sell you disposable throw away cartridges, bit like computer ink jet printer cartridges I guess except they last longer.

    One of the big advantages I used to claim using an oil free compressor design was getting 150 to 200
    hours life out of the repack able filter cartridge that oil lube units get only a 40 or 50 hour filter life.

    1. Was the fact oil free does not clog up the filter medium with a oil film
    2, Was the fact you didnít need activated carbon for the oil so could use more MS chemical in the pack
    3. Was the additional cooling Dp factor using oil free as opposed to a hot oil lubricated bath.
    4. Was using medical grade non carcinogetic molecular sieve, than imported junk from China with up to 30% inert build filler and binder (the brown colour)
    4. But another big factor was using the in line visual indicator and monitoring performance in real time allowing the user to change the chemical or cartridge
    when it was needed and not before (or too late with the clock it and hope version.)

    They have sold in the UK at £68 inc UK mainland delivery for the last 20 years with a 1/4NPT both ends, or 1/4 NPT one end 9/16-18 UNF thread the other or 9/16 thread each end to suit the Bauer P40 and P60 range.

    The visual indicator is included in the package but it is different from the American one shown.
    We offer a multi range indicator showing both 10/20/30% relative humidity or for the primary filter a 20/40/60% RH alternative for bulk primary rough filtration of multiple stacks.

    Both of these UK indicator cards last 2 to 5 years and cost £10 to replace

    Now that American website replacement indicator card isnít from the UK IMHO its a single indicator set at 40% RH and itís a "typo" that they claim 10%

    Further we stopped suppling the old CO carbon monoxide indicator card 15 years ago in favour of electronic versions as the original passive colour change CO chemical card indicator only indicates at 50ppm by which time your pretty much a gonna IMHO.
    Hello, are these visual indicators the one linked in the post before from Nuvair?

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by uncertainplume View Post
    Hello, are these visual indicators the one linked in the post before from Nuvair?
    No it's not the same.

    A number of observations,

    1. From the Nuvair photo you would'nt put a steel spring behind a pressure viewport without using some protection to avoid scratching.
    I dont know if you have ever visited a hyperbaric chamber or been in a closed diving bell but tapping the "glass" is highly discoraged.
    And a scratched "glass" is a possible good reason to replace. I used to hate it when some numpty would use their ring finger to tap
    the viewports on the chambers offshore. I'd wait until they were inside themselves then wack the chamber shell with a lump of 3x3 wood, they only did it the once.
    (I'm a certified PVHO-1 (Pressure Vessel Human Occupancy) viewport repairer. You can tell by the tins of Brasso around the workshop and the big stick LOL


    2. The American replacement indicator card is not the same as we use over here. They use a combination CO and single 40% display humidity element
    And in keeping with scuba sports stuff, the CO dont work until your a 50ppm and probably dead and the water display only works when your paddling in the stuff
    Not unlike the Personal filter junk some of us here continue to argue being a possible solution to extending cylinder life. Joking apart.

    3. By contrast the UK use a much more sensitive and accurate triple display of 10% 20% and 30% relative humidity in keeping with current BSEN 12021
    breathing air quality standards from a stored gas bank above 200 bar. And a 20/40/60 indicator card option for a portable compressor up to 200 bar.
    The other option is use the 20/40/60 off the standard compressor filtration stack and the 10/20/30 off the second fiter tower.

    All visual indicators need to see pressure at all times so are set up after the filter but before the back pressure regulator BPR or Priority valve on the filter.
    By contrast hold the bare indicator card in your clenched fist and it will indicate in around 10 seconds just by the sweat pours in your hand increasing localized humidity. I feel an experiment is required.
    Last edited by iain/hsm; 11-06-2019 at 06:24 PM.

  9. #59
    TDF Member uncertainplume's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janos View Post
    Here's my set-up. I have a Coltri compressor. The water-separator removes a lot of the moisture in the air [1], but it can only do so much. The main filter on the Coltri should remove the rest of the moisture but I'm nervous about it and worry that it's up to the job. I've therefore change the media in the main filter tower more often than recommended which I think means it should be ok. However I also have a secondary stack (from MDE) because I'm a belt and braces sort of person.

    I also have one of the moisture eyes that Iain recommends and he's absolutely correct with his recommendation. They are great, but someone in the UK should stock the 10/20/30 indicator cards.

    Janos




    [1] Imagine some 1000 litres of air at 30% humidity. Compress it to 200bar and you have 5 litres of air at 6000% humidity. 6000% humidity is impossible, so 59/60ths of that will drop out leaving you with 5 litres of air at 100% humidity. When that expands to 1 bar again you have 1000 litres of air at 0.5% humidity.
    Hello Janos, what water separator do you use?
    Cheers,
    Alex


 
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