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  1. #31
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    It's always been my view that you really need 6m of water to assess whether a trainee is in proper control of a CBL. Other than an uncontrolled blast for the surface or a bobbing up and down, in a pool it is difficult to assess how well a trainee is controlling ascent rate.

    It wasn't my intention to 'tar and feather' the instructor but he does take an ultra-strict approach to training which I feel is demotivating to trainees. However when he is finished with them, they can certainly perform the skills. A couple have asked for other instructors because they got fed up with his approach taking so long compared with other trainees. He also refuses to accept ADI's playing any role in training except as his 'bag-carrier' and will not sign off any skill that he does not personally teach.

  2. #32
    I used to be Cheeky UnCheeky Monkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Carr View Post
    It wasn't my intention to 'tar and feather' the instructor
    oh dear, I didn't mean to offend !

  3. #33
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    I am not involved with BSAC and don't know diddly about any of its rules, but this thread reminds me of my introduction to teaching the CESA through PADI.

    Before becoming an instructor, I assisted classes as a DM and then an Assistant Instructor. One of the instructors I assisted many times was much like the instructor being discussed in this thread. The PADI standard for the pool exercise for CESA called for the student to swim 30 feet/9 meters while simulating a CESA horizontally. The language in the description said it should be done at a "normal" ascent rate. At that time we were using tables, not computers, and the standard ascent rate was 60 FPM/18 MPM. The instructor insisted that this meant the student should take at least 30 seconds to cover that distance. He might let a student get by with 29 seconds or maybe even 28, but lots and lots of students had to repeat that skill because they got there too soon.

    Then I took the training to become an instructor, and I had to take the Instructor Examination with a representative of PADI headquarters. All the instructor candidates had to demonstrate the horizontal CESA, and I am sure every last one of us was sure to take 30 seconds. When we were done, we all got a bit of a lecture from the examiner. The standard for the skill was 30 feet/9 meters, not 30 seconds. A person doing a CESA needs to get to the surface, and doing it a little hurriedly is perfectly OK. As instructors, we were to interpret a "normal ascent rate" to mean "not sprinting."

  4. #34
    TDF Member DaveBarber's Avatar
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    My take is that the pool drill is to teach the essential "control" element.
    Its not meant to be a open water simulation.

    In a 3m pool its not going to be a full on rescue.

    Like all training you break it down into small pieces which you perfect, then you join them all up later.

    The instructor may have gotten over focused on this part and lost sight of the whole picture.

    Its a bit like drysuit training. First you learn to compensate using the suit. this teaches you the control skill required. Later in real life you probably compensate on the BCD which is a better tool for the job.

  5. #35
    bottlefish Stuart Keasley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnAdsit View Post
    I am not involved with BSAC and don't know diddly about any of its rules, but this thread reminds me of my introduction to teaching the CESA through PADI.

    Before becoming an instructor, I assisted classes as a DM and then an Assistant Instructor. One of the instructors I assisted many times was much like the instructor being discussed in this thread. The PADI standard for the pool exercise for CESA called for the student to swim 30 feet/9 meters while simulating a CESA horizontally. The language in the description said it should be done at a "normal" ascent rate. At that time we were using tables, not computers, and the standard ascent rate was 60 FPM/18 MPM. The instructor insisted that this meant the student should take at least 30 seconds to cover that distance. He might let a student get by with 29 seconds or maybe even 28, but lots and lots of students had to repeat that skill because they got there too soon.

    Then I took the training to become an instructor, and I had to take the Instructor Examination with a representative of PADI headquarters. All the instructor candidates had to demonstrate the horizontal CESA, and I am sure every last one of us was sure to take 30 seconds. When we were done, we all got a bit of a lecture from the examiner. The standard for the skill was 30 feet/9 meters, not 30 seconds. A person doing a CESA needs to get to the surface, and doing it a little hurriedly is perfectly OK. As instructors, we were to interpret a "normal ascent rate" to mean "not sprinting."
    Not quite sure on the explanation of that. Yep, there's no time specified on the Confined Water 9m horizontal simulated CESA, however there is for the conduct of the CESA in the Open Water dives. From the PADI Instructor Manual, one of the performance requirements is to

    Maintain a normal ascent rate.
    Point 5 in Conduct of the CESA then goes on to state:

    Observe and maintain control during the ascent, not exceeding 18 metres/60 feet per minute. The student should be held near and just below you, which allows you to listen
    for the studentís sound and tends to make the student look up toward you. ....
    Maintaining a controlled simulated ascent rate was absolutely a requirement during my IE, it was one the skills I had to demo during the confined water sessions, one of the mistakes my allotted students made was to swim too fast..... I remember it very well, because I very nearly missed it, if I had I would ave needed to retake that section.

    Perhaps things have changed...
    Please visit bottlefish for my personal web site, Quay Cameras to chat to me about the cameras and kit that I sell

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Carr View Post
    It's always been my view that you really need 6m of water to assess whether a trainee is in proper control of a CBL. Other than an uncontrolled blast for the surface or a bobbing up and down, in a pool it is difficult to assess how well a trainee is controlling ascent rate.

    It wasn't my intention to 'tar and feather' the instructor but he does take an ultra-strict approach to training which I feel is demotivating to trainees. However when he is finished with them, they can certainly perform the skills. A couple have asked for other instructors because they got fed up with his approach taking so long compared with other trainees. He also refuses to accept ADI's playing any role in training except as his 'bag-carrier' and will not sign off any skill that he does not personally teach.
    He sounds like an absolute knobhead and needs kicking out of the club before he manages to demotivate too many of your prospective new members.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by WFO View Post
    He sounds like an absolute knobhead and needs kicking out of the club before he manages to demotivate too many of your prospective new members.
    Unfortunately, we are desperately short of instructors at the moment, having gone down from 7 OWI's plus 3 ADI's to 1 OWI - this guy in less than three months. Two have dropped out for medical reasons, one has moved out of the area having changed jobs, two have left having trained their son (and ripped the club off in the process), one has bought a house in Spain and won't be back until July. We have three other experienced divers booked on the IFC later in the year so longer term we should be OK - it's just a case of managing in the meantime.

  8. #38
    Confused? You will be. Jay_Benson's Avatar
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    Allan - have you been in contact with your regional rep or other local clubs? The regional rep should be able to help out.
    For information to help you plan your dive trip in the UK and Eire try www.planyourdivetrip.co.uk

    Public transport planning info at www.traveline.info

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay_Benson View Post
    Allan - have you been in contact with your regional rep or other local clubs? The regional rep should be able to help out.
    Yes, and I was on a course a week ago and posed the question to a couple of NI's. The response was that during training, ascent should be kept to as close as 'normal' as possible but that control was more important than actual ascent rate. There is no need to insist that it shuld take 30 secs to go from 3m to the surface.

    As to how fast an ascent could be in a real-life emergency, I couldn't get a definitive answer, only that it is likely to be faster than normal.

    I think Ian@1904's friend who suggested following the small bubbles is the best guide. That was the rate that we were taught back in the dark ages (1960's) long before the days of dive computers and I don't know of anyone who came to harm because of that ascent rate. Certainly there weren't loads of cases of DCS then. It is also easy to judge, much better than trying to monitor your computer when doing a CBL with both hands full and watching the victim.

  10. #40
    Confused? You will be. Jay_Benson's Avatar
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    Sorry, my mistake - I wasn’t clear. I was referring to the lack of instructors and getting help from the region and other clubs.
    For information to help you plan your dive trip in the UK and Eire try www.planyourdivetrip.co.uk

    Public transport planning info at www.traveline.info


 
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