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  1. #81
    bottlefish Stuart Keasley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay_Benson View Post
    I think what OOT and Chrisch were trying to say is that the law is dispassionate. It does not factor in the passion of those affected and just looks at the case from a legal perspective. Now the victims of crime do get a chance to put forward the effects of the crime has had on them - this is after a guilty verdict has been delivered by prior to sentencing. The judge, however, has sentencing guidelines that they have to follow and these guidelines are set away from individual cases so that there is consistency in sentencing tariffs. To allow emotions to enter the court room when it comes to sentencing is, in my opinion, wrong and the victim, whist having the opportunity to state their position, needs to be kept away from the actual decision.
    Catch up Jay, that emotions have no place in either judging on or enforcing the law is the one thing that people are in agreement on
    Please visit bottlefish for my personal web site, Quay Cameras to chat to me about the cameras and kit that I sell

  2. #82
    I used to be Cheeky UnCheeky Monkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnCheeky Monkey View Post
    I'm fine with violent robbers being knocked off their feet just as much as being knocked off their wheels
    Quote Originally Posted by jturner View Post
    I think you missed OOT's point somewhat. You might be fine with it, I might be, but the law should not be fine with it. That road leads to a lot of places we as a society probably don't want to go.
    I don't think I did

    The law allows the use of reasonable force

    What is reasonable always depends on the norms of the society - because reasonableness, by definition, is incapable of definition

    I'm the first on here to uphold the rule of law - and have done so in a very real sense in real life - but my point is that we perhaps ought not to be too picky about where we draw the reasonableness line when we are dealing with what at one time seemed an uncontrollable rising tide of violent criminality

    So - for me - whether on a bike, on foot or in a car, I'm fine with being violent criminals being knocked off feet or off wheels to prevent crime or apprehend offenders as being within the acceptable limits. I don't think we should be overly precious about where that particular line gets drawn, and so long as there is a line and so long as its within a window that society accepts as 'reasonable force' the the rule of law can sleep easy

    Giving a wide degree of latitude and applying the benefit of the doubt against the criminal is nothing new - you can go all the way back to Oliver Wendell Holmes 100 years ago, and probably earlier, to find that “detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an upturned knife” - and this is a development of that approach. It is not to say that those who commit crime place themselves beyond the protection of the law and become fair game (see my earlier posts on this very thread) but that when assessing the conduct of those charged with preventing or apprehending them we need to allow an appropriately wide degree of latitude

    IMO and FWIW

  3. #83
    Established TDF Member OutOfTest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnCheeky Monkey View Post
    I don't think I did

    The law allows the use of reasonable force

    What is reasonable always depends on the norms of the society - because reasonableness, by definition, is incapable of definition

    I'm the first on here to uphold the rule of law - and have done so in a very real sense in real life - but my point is that we perhaps ought not to be too picky about where we draw the reasonableness line when we are dealing with what at one time seemed an uncontrollable rising tide of violent criminality

    So - for me - whether on a bike, on foot or in a car, I'm fine with being violent criminals being knocked off feet or off wheels to prevent crime or apprehend offenders as being within the acceptable limits. I don't think we should be overly precious about where that particular line gets drawn, and so long as there is a line and so long as its within a window that society accepts as 'reasonable force' the the rule of law can sleep easy

    Giving a wide degree of latitude and applying the benefit of the doubt against the criminal is nothing new - you can go all the way back to Oliver Wendell Holmes 100 years ago, and probably earlier, to find that “detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an upturned knife” - and this is a development of that approach. It is not to say that those who commit crime place themselves beyond the protection of the law and become fair game (see my earlier posts on this very thread) but that when assessing the conduct of those charged with preventing or apprehending them we need to allow an appropriately wide degree of latitude

    IMO and FWIW
    I'm not joking, you *almost* have me convinced. That's a real nice post mate.

  4. #84
    Self Defecating The Real Paulus's Avatar
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    Just seen this https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46524839 and it reminded me of this thread (or at least the direction this thread had taken).

    Even in these times of heightened security and tension and even at Parliament this fellow was "only" tasered and retained. Imagine that kind of restraint being shown in the US? He'd have been filled with bullets on sight.

    Now, if he'd illegally parked a mode outside Parliament, things might have been different


 
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