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  1. #41
    Old but keen Mark Chase's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wibs View Post
    Some questions

    "DIR" and related agencies (e.g. GUE) mandate a one piece harness despite the obvious shortcomings as outlined above.

    Where did the "recommendation" for a one piece harness come from?

    Why was it part of DIR?

    What is its key benefit?

    DIR / GUE is a cave diving organisation so very little issue with surface rescue

    They have standardised their procedures and try and incorporate all sorts of diveing like OW wreck dives CCR dives etc and the standardisation is an amazing achievement but it has resulted in some sub optimal diving practices in non cave environments


    To overcome such issues, they rely heavily on training and regular skills practice to use a "teem" system

    GUE DIR was based on a minimalist KISS type Hogarthian approach to which the one piece harness fits well

    Some will claim the one piece harness is required for scootering but of course the scooter pull comes off the crotch strap not the upper harness so this is just a red hearing.


    The key benefit IMHO is it's cheep

    Secretly of course the main benefit is it looks great

  2. #42
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    The "standard" kit config -- and protocols for that matter -- doesn't even work in caves. Sure, maybe in Florida or Mexico, but not in sumps with poor visibility and tight restrictions where sidemount or no-mount reigns.

    Interesting that UK cave training (in the standard config) is mostly taught in France or other countries.

    Point being there can never be a one-size-fits-all config. When diving off a RIB or difficult shore a harness loop is pretty essential on MY KIT.
    Last edited by Wibs; 03-11-2018 at 01:44 PM.

  3. #43
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    Do GUE use a oph on the RB80 or the JJ

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonG View Post
    Do GUE use a oph on the RB80 or the JJ
    We use a oph for everything

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wibs View Post
    Some questions

    "DIR" and related agencies (e.g. GUE) mandate a one piece harness despite the obvious shortcomings as outlined above.

    Where did the "recommendation" for a one piece harness come from?

    Why was it part of DIR?

    What is its key benefit?
    I'm sure a proper GUE-er will be able to elaborate (though a quick google will answer that question for you) but IIRC, the key benefit is the base philosophy behind all their kit configuration: standardisation, from day 1 to extreme dives, and that you use what you need and nothing more. Simple and effective. To repeat what's already been said many times before, if you have a OPH set up correctly and your drysuit/thermals fit you properly, you shouldn't need a break, and not having any clips means you need never concern yourself with them breaking! Adding breaks will add extra bulk to the harness (albeit not much), will get in the way of the stowed backup torches and adds a failure point. Now if you struggle to get out of a OPH without one due to restricted flexibility, old injuries or the like, I would say adding one makes sense - getting kit on and off outweighs the neatness, ability to stow a torch a certain way etc. but most people seem to struggle because their harness is a mess or their drysuit/thermals doesn't fit properly in my limited experience. Adding the break is a workaround to the problem, not a resolution. I can honestly say I haven't ever had problems getting out of the BCD caused by the shoulder straps with the harness set up properly, be that with drysuits, 5mm wetties, at sea in lumpy weather or whatever (the crotch strap on the other hand is a PITA and hates me). Maybe I'm just lucky... certainly, no one would accuse me of being unusually agile or flexible!

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonG View Post
    WFO is the sump UK break adjustable or do you install it at your preferred harness size and then leave it at that?

    The main reason I have been using a OPH is to reduce clutter which is already increased on an RB, but pretty sure I will go with a break, I dive solo so much incl. tricky access quarries like Hodge that it seems to make more sense from a safety POV.
    No it is in effect like a tri glide on each side of the break so does not offer any easy adjustment.

  7. #47
    Established TDF Member Tel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jturner View Post
    I'm sure a proper GUE-er will be able to elaborate (though a quick google will answer that question for you) but IIRC, the key benefit is the base philosophy behind all their kit configuration: standardisation, from day 1 to extreme dives, and that you use what you need and nothing more. Simple and effective. To repeat what's already been said many times before, if you have a OPH set up correctly and your drysuit/thermals fit you properly, you shouldn't need a break, and not having any clips means you need never concern yourself with them breaking! Adding breaks will add extra bulk to the harness (albeit not much), will get in the way of the stowed backup torches and adds a failure point. Now if you struggle to get out of a OPH without one due to restricted flexibility, old injuries or the like, I would say adding one makes sense - getting kit on and off outweighs the neatness, ability to stow a torch a certain way etc. but most people seem to struggle because their harness is a mess or their drysuit/thermals doesn't fit properly in my limited experience. Adding the break is a workaround to the problem, not a resolution. I can honestly say I haven't ever had problems getting out of the BCD caused by the shoulder straps with the harness set up properly, be that with drysuits, 5mm wetties, at sea in lumpy weather or whatever (the crotch strap on the other hand is a PITA and hates me). Maybe I'm just lucky... certainly, no one would accuse me of being unusually agile or flexible!

    I'm still struggling to see how a OPH setup correctly has any relevance to the issue
    of a non-diver trying to get someone out of such a rig.

    Whatever side of the fence we sit, the bottom line comes down to risk.

    The failure of a clip while a bit of a pain is manageable.
    The failure to cut someone out of a OPH (cannot assume it's a diver) could be fatal.

    Sure it's a remote scenario in both cases, but if the absolute of 'must not have a break'
    is so important, than surely the absolute of 'don't die cause you can't get out' applies
    even more so?

  8. #48
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    I added a loop under my left shoulder because I found myself in a situation where I was on the beach at the end of a shore dive, trying to de-kit quickly to respond to an actual emergency where every second was critical and it took me longer than I was happy with.

    I don't give a monkey's if anyone else doesn't like it. It works for me and I'm a lot happier that if I'm ever in that situation again (deities forbid) it'll take me less time to be ready to help out.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by jturner View Post
    not having any clips means you need never concern yourself with them breaking!
    Can I ask why would I be concerned about clips breaking??? In 15 years of diving I have never heard of , read or seen a harness clip break. If you have any examples please tell us what happened I'd love to hear.

    When quantifying a hazard you need to have worked out its probability of occurring or else by itself its meaningless, bit like the shark attack scenario, at what point do we stop and say well is it actually going to happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by jturner View Post
    will get in the way of the stowed backup torches and adds a failure point.
    From a cave diving perspective again do we have any stats or incident figures for when harness clips broke? The term 'failure point' seems to be mentioned a lot but again a failure point without a probability of it occurring is meaningless. I have no issue with failure points if their probability is so low its not worth considering but no-one can seem to be able to provide this data for harness clips

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by cathal View Post
    Can I ask why would I be concerned about clips breaking??? In 15 years of diving I have never heard of , read or seen a harness clip break. If you have any examples please tell us what happened I'd love to hear.

    When quantifying a hazard you need to have worked out its probability of occurring or else by itself its meaningless, bit like the shark attack scenario, at what point do we stop and say well is it actually going to happen?



    From a cave diving perspective again do we have any stats or incident figures for when harness clips broke? The term 'failure point' seems to be mentioned a lot but again a failure point without a probability of it occurring is meaningless. I have no issue with failure points if their probability is so low its not worth considering but no-one can seem to be able to provide this data for harness clips
    I have seen multiple clips failing especially on BCDs. I was diving with one fella with a break in a OPH who hurt his back when his break gave way walking to the water. I have never seen them give way underwater.

    I do almost exclusively ocean diving (I can and do cave dive) in GUE configuration for 1000s of dives - I have never run into a situation when not having a break was a problem. Regardless of GUEs standards which mandate a one piece harness I feel based on previous sentence a break is unnecessary - why have one that can fail? Others may have and are welcome to a different opinion and I'll happily dive with almost anybody break or not


 
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