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  1. #6251
    Happy atheist, despite the "evidence"...
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelemonkey View Post
    I knew this thread would never die.
    Had I known I wouldn't have started it. On the other hand, perhaps it's useful as a lightning rod to keep most of the rest of the forum clear of this sort of thing.

    (The spur for this post is right at the end. Sorry to anybody who feels obliged to wade through this rant, which I've not bothered to review and check. Feel free to go straight to the RNLI story. I'm generous like that.)

    The whole rightward lurch of the country, which has been exacerbated by leavers' rhetoric, is very disturbing.

    We now have a what I think is a protofascist populist government which has taken advantage of the Overton Window's shift to put in policies that mirror Viktor Orbán et als' populist fascism.

    The right to protest is being curtailed.

    Journalists are being threatened with extensions to the Official Secrets Act that could see them imprisoned for up to 14 years for printing stories that embarrass the government.

    Institutions that don't toe the line are threatened and have government-friendly managers thrust upon them, or invited into their fold to appease the ERG and its ilk. The British Museum, FFS, has appointed Gideon Osborne as the chairman of its board; yes, the same Osborne who demontrated disdain for arts and culture while in office. The National Trust is criticised for daring to add factually historical information to its properties.

    MP's are suggesting that Union Flags should be made available to schools, which should be encouraged to fly them.

    The BBC's DG is a man who once stood as a Conservative councillor. It's chairman is a man who has worked as a merchant banker most of his career and donated £400,000 to the Conservative Party. Neither has any experience in broadcasting or news. An ex-BBC journalist who quit to be a Conservative PM's spokesman has recieved wide positive publicity from a reactionary press for pressuring the BBC not to appoint an experienced broadcast journalist because of three vaguely critical Tweets.

    Doublespeak and outright denial of even recent history is common; cf. Frost and Johnsons' smoke and mirrors re. the Northern Ireland Protocol which they negotiated, they signed and they fought and won an election with is, now, apparently to be renegotiated because it's "suddenly" become unfit for purpose.

    The judiciary's ability to scrutinise legislation is being reduced (although not as drastically as was first mooted).

    It's been suggested that it be made illegal to crowd fund legal challenges to legislation and government behaviour.

    New laws threaten anybody, including the RNLI, who saves potential migrants at sea and lands them in the UK.

    Boundary changes are on their way which will make opposition wins less likely.

    At risk of Godwining (again), this how how fascist regimes behave. Oban was voted in, as were Chávez, Bolsonaro and, of course, Hitler.

    And, cutting out much of what I was going to post because I'm boring and depressing myself, finally to the rhetoric and just one of its implications.

    When the England football team collectively took the knee early in the Euros, they were booed by a substantial but vocal minority of the fans. Their stance (pun sort of intended) was implicitly endorsed by both the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary, who then both were as shocked as Casablanca's Captain Renault when racist abuse was directed at three young black footballers. Their denial and evasion when confronted with their earlier statements is yet another example of history-twisting doublespeak.

    The RNLI Tweeted this. So, in addition to pissed up wankers attacking police, fire and ambulance crews, lifeboat crews can be added.
    Happy to be a feminist SJ(K)W snowflake in a godless universe, no matter what some experts think. And Braun was a twat who's not missed. At all.

  2. #6252
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkP View Post
    ...
    At risk of Godwining (again), this how how fascist regimes behave. Oban was voted in, as were Chávez, Bolsonaro and, of course, Hitler. ....
    Most people are not much interested in politics and could not tell you who their MP is. If asked the manifesto pledges of the major parties the vast majority of the population would not know what they are or to which party to attribute them. This seems fair enough to me given how much nonsense is throw around in political circles, but I fail to understand why anyone with such a lack of basic knowledge feels the need to vote at all. A huge proportion of older people vote Conservative but really know nothing much about the party or the MPs that make up it's majority. All they know (if asked) is "you can't trust the other lot".

    Charismatic narcissistic populists (like your examples) speak to people's emotions and to their hopes. Most unsuccessful politicians make the mistake of talking to people's rational understanding. The Labour party were (IIRC) much of the opinion that Corbyn was the vote loser and had Starmer being the leader they would have won. Starmer is now leader and they are 17% behind the liar and oaf that is PM. Corbyn (just to get the data out there) polled more votes than Blair or Brown. In fact Corbyn had a similar share of the overall votes as Wilson who formed a majority government with the same Labour vote. Such is the vagaries of our system and the gerrymandering of the last 50 years. Despite this the myth that Corbyn was "unelectable" remains the BS spouted the most often in respect of this recent history.

    We are where we are. Whatever the rights and wrongs and effects of the current UKIP/National Front iteration of the Tory party it is in power and pretty much free to do as it likes (and Mark's post lists what it likes to do).

    We now must face the climate emergency and align with Biden to fight to save our species. The heat in the US is now near 50 in the worst affected parts. Huge tracts of forests are on fire. The news media are talking about the Olympics and (understandably) the screw up that is the UK's handling of the pandemic, but with the massive spin that somehow the worthless filth that are in government got it right and we could not have done so in the EU or some such crap. We clap and cheer the NHS then shit on them with a derisory pay offer. Where are the 20,000 nurses? Ahh. Forgotten.

    Seriously, I don't mind people disagreeing with me about the finer points of taxation or the generosity of the welfare state - such disagreement is fine. I just do not understand how anyone - anyone at all - can honestly think this bunch of crooks are going to do anything to fix the busted climate. So either they (voters) don't give a shit (my preferred theory) or they are thick as mince.

    Thank whatever deity you choose that Trump did not get back in. We would be in a major shitstorm now from which there would be no recovery.
    Last edited by Chrisch; 24-07-2021 at 04:42 PM.
    We give £350m a week to the EU. Let's give it to Dido Harding instead.

  3. #6253
    Established TDF Member jamesp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    Most people are not much interested in politics and could not tell you who their MP is. If asked the manifesto pledges of the major parties the vast majority of the population would not know what they are or to which party to attribute them. This seems fair enough to me given how much nonsense is throw around in political circles, but I fail to understand why anyone with such a lack of basic knowledge feels the need to vote at all. A huge proportion of older people vote Conservative but really know nothing much about the party or the MPs that make up it's majority. All they know (if asked) is "you can't trust the other lot".

    Charismatic narcissistic populists (like your examples) speak to people's emotions and to their hopes. Most unsuccessful politicians make the mistake of talking to people's rational understanding. The Labour party were (IIRC) much of the opinion that Corbyn was the vote loser and had Starmer being the leader they would have won. Starmer is now leader and they are 17% behind the liar and oaf that is PM. Corbyn (just to get the data out there) polled more votes than Blair or Brown. In fact Corbyn had a similar share of the overall votes as Wilson who formed a majority government with the same Labour vote. Such is the vagaries of our system and the gerrymandering of the last 50 years. Despite this the myth that Corbyn was "unelectable" remains the BS spouted the most often in respect of this recent history.

    We are where we are. Whatever the rights and wrongs and effects of the current UKIP/National Front iteration of the Tory party it is in power and pretty much free to do as it likes (and Mark's post lists what it likes to do).

    We now must face the climate emergency and align with Biden to fight to save our species. The heat in the US is now near 50 in the worst affected parts. Huge tracts of forests are on fire. The news media are talking about the Olympics and (understandably) the screw up that is the UK's handling of the pandemic, but with the massive spin that somehow the worthless filth that are in government got it right and we could not have done so in the EU or some such crap. We clap and cheer the NHS then shit on them with a derisory pay offer. Where are the 20,000 nurses? Ahh. Forgotten.

    Seriously, I don't mind people disagreeing with me about the finer points of taxation or the generosity of the welfare state - such disagreement is fine. I just do not understand how anyone - anyone at all - can honestly think this bunch of crooks are going to do anything to fix the busted climate. So either they (voters) don't give a shit (my preferred theory) or they are thick as mince.

    Thank whatever deity you choose that Trump did not get back in. We would be in a major shitstorm now from which there would be no recovery.
    And Blair won a landslide, with barely the votes the Major scraped to victory with; people don`t vote anymore.

  4. #6254
    Established TDF Member jamesp's Avatar
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    Saw this earlier, excerpt from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy; Remind anyone else of the floppy haired blond one?

    "One of the major difficulties Trillian experienced in her relationship with Zaphod was learning to distinguish between him pretending to be stupid just to get people off their guard, pretending to be stupid because he couldn't be bothered to think and wanted someone else to do it for him, pretending to be outrageously stupid to hide the fact that he didn't actually understand what was going on, and really being genuinely stupid. He was renowned for being amazingly clever and quite clearly so-but not all the time, which obviously worried him, hence the act. He preferred people to be puzzled rather than contemptuous. This above all appeared to Trillian to be genuinely stupid, but she could no longer be bothered to argue about it."

  5. #6255
    bottlefish Stuart Keasley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    The Labour party were (IIRC) much of the opinion that Corbyn was the vote loser and had Starmer being the leader they would have won. Starmer is now leader and they are 17% behind the liar and oaf that is PM. Corbyn (just to get the data out there) polled more votes than Blair or Brown. In fact Corbyn had a similar share of the overall votes as Wilson who formed a majority government with the same Labour vote. Such is the vagaries of our system and the gerrymandering of the last 50 years. Despite this the myth that Corbyn was "unelectable" remains the BS spouted the most often in respect of this recent history.
    The Labour party under Corbyn were over 11% behind the Conservatives in the last General Election, despite all the issues the Conservatives were having; he lost the previous election as well. Fact is, he didn't get elected, despite being at the helm of Labour for 5 years across a period of massive political upheaval. Unelectable seems to fit the bill fairly well.

    But even so, doesn't mean Starmer is any better.

    So we're still without a functional opposition, or a viable alternative. Best thing that can happen is for the sensible core to leave Labour to the fringe left and start afresh with a new party that can be more centrist. The reality is, the hard left ideology is as unwelcome to most as the hard right.

    [Re Wilson vs Corbyn. Wilson got 39% of the vote, Corbyn got just over 32%]
    Last edited by Stuart Keasley; 26-07-2021 at 07:54 PM.
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  6. #6256
    Confused? You will be. Jay_Benson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Keasley View Post
    The reality is, the hard left ideology is as unwelcome to most as the hard right.
    Sadly, I have a horrible feeling that there are far too many that feel more akin to the far right than to the centre.

    IMHO they have reached this point by a constant diet of bile about others they perceive as below them and so they detest them and believe that they are being dragged down by them so they want to cut them off. The suppliers of the bile are the newspapers that are pushing that agenda to protect their owners wealth and power base.
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  7. #6257
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Keasley View Post
    ...
    So we're still without a functional opposition, or a viable alternative. Best thing that can happen is for the sensible core to leave Labour to the fringe left and start afresh with a new party that can be more centrist. The reality is, the hard left ideology is as unwelcome to most as the hard right.
    The opposition is perfectly functional and the Labour party perfectly capable of forming a government. It is simply that there are too many people that are too enamoured of the worthless shit that is the Tory party. It is led by a liar and a sociopath and has pretty much screwed up everything it has done thus far bar the purchase of Covid vaccine. Only the people stupid enough to believe the lies in the press or on social media think Johnson is of any use and the old people that are too far gone to ever consider any alternative.

    I am unaware of any hard left in UK politics. The SWP might count but to the best of my knowledge they do not fight elections (and would probably get only 10 votes if they did).

    What would be much better is if people voted Green and gave a shit about the environment. But they don't - they are selfish scum and want to fly off on holiday and fuck the planet. So we are where we are. And will be for some time.
    We give £350m a week to the EU. Let's give it to Dido Harding instead.

  8. #6258
    bottlefish Stuart Keasley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay_Benson View Post
    Sadly, I have a horrible feeling that there are far too many that feel more akin to the far right than to the centre.

    IMHO they have reached this point by a constant diet of bile about others they perceive as below them and so they detest them and believe that they are being dragged down by them so they want to cut them off. The suppliers of the bile are the newspapers that are pushing that agenda to protect their owners wealth and power base.
    There are too many, that's for sure.... but then one is too many as far as I'm concerned.

    But I think the press on the left have been just as guilty of perpetuating bile as the press on the right, continually ramming home this divisive polarised crap, that anyone that doesn't agree with their politics or view is by definition slightly right of Enoch Powell.

    Just because someone is concerned about uncontrolled immigration, or won't raise a fist for BLM, doesn't mean they are xenophobic or racist.
    Just because a person doesn't wear a rainbow badge, doesn't mean they are anti LGBQT+
    Just because a person has a rental property, doesn't mean they are an evil landlord.

    There are so many examples of the above, where people are vilified unnecessarily. In every instance, a it does is serve to stop sensible discussion and allow the false narrative of divisiveness to take root.
    Please visit bottlefish for my personal web site, Quay Cameras to chat to me about the cameras and kit that I sell

  9. #6259
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Keasley View Post
    ...
    But I think the press on the left have been just as guilty of perpetuating bile as the press on the right, continually ramming home this divisive polarised crap, that anyone that doesn't agree with their politics or view is by definition slightly right of Enoch Powell.
    Left wing press? Are the SWP still selling four papers a week outside the tube station?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Keasley View Post
    ...Just because someone is concerned about uncontrolled immigration, or won't raise a fist for BLM, doesn't mean they are xenophobic or racist.
    True, but mostly they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Keasley View Post
    ...Just because a person doesn't wear a rainbow badge, doesn't mean they are anti LGBQT+
    True, but mostly they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Keasley View Post
    ...Just because a person has a rental property, doesn't mean they are an evil landlord.
    True, but mostly they are.


    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Keasley View Post
    ...There are so many examples of the above, where people are vilified unnecessarily. In every instance, a it does is serve to stop sensible discussion and allow the false narrative of divisiveness to take root.
    Surely the right wing culture war is designed to do exactly that?
    We give £350m a week to the EU. Let's give it to Dido Harding instead.

  10. #6260
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    Who cares? Left/Right wing, what rubbish - constantly spouted, totally misunderstood and overused. The planet and climate change should be our only concern and to that end environmental parties such as the Green Party are the only ones we should be supporting.


 

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