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  1. #6091
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesp View Post
    I was going to post this, But did not want to get involved.
    Coking coal is actually used as part of the chemical (reduction) process for producing steel; that would be beyond the comprehension of many however.
    It's the lack of knowledgeable reporting and knowledgeable reporters. I'm sure kids are taught less at school nowadays. I was taught about steel manufacturer at secondary school (inc Bessemer process) in both the science and metalworking classes.

  2. #6092
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    Whilst I also agree that the opposition are twats they at least offered a "green new deal" which was roundly rejected.
    Whilst I agree with your opinion on the opposition there is only one 'Green Deal' that will solve the problem but that will never get past the politicians and religous bigwigs which is population reduction - planet wide. Every other action is 'fiddling whilst the planet burns'.
    The large and growing human population will destroy the planet for most life.

    So here is a question - is CV-19 the planet trying to rid its self of the largest parasite on the planet?
    Last edited by F.P.; 08-02-2021 at 10:34 AM.

  3. #6093
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    Quote Originally Posted by F.P. View Post
    It's the lack of knowledgeable reporting and knowledgeable reporters. I'm sure kids are taught less at school nowadays. I was taught about steel manufacturer at secondary school (inc Bessemer process) in both the science and metalworking classes.
    I think it is down to laziness and time restrictions now rather than outright lack of knowledge. In times gone by, editors would expect properly investigated stories but, with budgets being low due to low sales of newspapers/instant TV reporting being the expectation, there is not necessarily the time or inclination to do that research.

  4. #6094
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F.P. View Post
    Whilst I agree with your opinion on the opposition there is only one 'Green Deal' that will solve the problem but that will never get past the politicians and religous bigwigs which is population reduction - planet wide. Every other action is 'fiddling whilst the planet burns'.
    The large and growing human population will destroy the planet for most life.

    So here is a question - is CV-19 the planet trying to rid its self of the largest parasite on the planet?
    Population growth is slowing and forecast to reverse soon. But there is political and religious opposition to it, that is true. However it is not the amount of people that is the problem it is the amount of CO2. There is more than enough energy to power the planet with the current population levels without the need for fossil fuel. The issue is most people don't give a shit and are too busy finding excuses not to do anything.

    The SARS-Cov-2 virus is not trying to do anything. It is just a lump of RNA. The planet is not trying to do anything. It is just a lump of rock.

    The repeated assertion that population is the key issue is wrong if viewed from a climate change perspective. That said the pressure of population is damaging to many aspects of human life and so from a comfort perspective we are above the optimal level. With that in mind I would welcome a falling population. The best way to achieve that is to reduce inequality as much as possible, reduce poverty as much as possible and to empower and educate women to control their own fertility. It is men that are the drivers of population growth.

    The removal of fossil CO2 from the atmosphere is the required action to prevent further global warming. The start point is to stop burning fossil fuel so we do not continue to add to the burden of CO2. Since only a fraction of the world's population contribute much in the big scale of things it is that fraction that is the problem, not the overall number.

    Population levels are an aggravating factor as they proportionately increase fossil fuel demand under the current system. If we do not change the system the only acceptable human population figure is zero. That is one answer but I would like to try others first.
    We give £350m a week to the EU. Let's give it to Dido Harding instead.

  5. #6095
    bottlefish Stuart Keasley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neilwood View Post
    I think it is down to laziness and time restrictions now rather than outright lack of knowledge. In times gone by, editors would expect properly investigated stories but, with budgets being low due to low sales of newspapers/instant TV reporting being the expectation, there is not necessarily the time or inclination to do that research.
    I think it's probably more like a seismic shift in the business models they operate within. We used to buy a whole news paper, tendency would therefore be for people to buy the one(s) that offered the most content, aligned with the persons interests and beliefs, and then (pretend to) read it cover to cover. Now we have instant access to articles from all the papers, from local to global; the more sensationalist the headline, the more we're likely to click on it, the more the content winds us up, the more we're likely to send it on to others.
    Last edited by Stuart Keasley; 08-02-2021 at 01:16 PM.
    Please visit bottlefish for my personal web site, Quay Cameras to chat to me about the cameras and kit that I sell

  6. #6096
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    Quote Originally Posted by graham_hk View Post
    Sad but true, it's laughable a diver could even consider themselves an environmentalist - given how wasteful our hobby is - unless youre hand pumping recycled tanks and kayaking in a homemade kayak out to the dive site launching from a harbour that you walked to.
    That would be true if you believe that you can only be 100% "green" and anything less is some kind of sell out and is automatically disqualified. The reality of course is very different, as I'm sure you know (especially as you're posting on a web forum using an electronic device!). Yes, our hobby is wasteful of resources and so forth, but if we use those resources to do what we can to change minds, clean up what we can, help out where we can, and report back on what's going on out of sight to the majority of the population (as just a few examples), yeah, there's still the cost but there's now also a large benefit which probably outweighs the cost. Do we all believe that the environmental awareness of so many people today came about as a result of sitting in a home-made tent, eating home-grown mung beans and tofu, whilst giving peace a chance on our organic composting toilets? Or did people getting clear, understandable evidence (pictures, video, reporting, eye-witness accounts etc) out to the general public help?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Keasley View Post
    So, as is so often the case, it seems that the detail behind the headline is perhaps not so cut and dried. Further information suggests :

    - The proposed coal mine in Cumbria is purely for supply of coking coal to the British steel industry
    - Coking coal is currently the only viable way of producing steel
    - The British steel industry currently imports coal in from Russia and Australia

    So what are the alternatives?

    - Continue to import coal from Russia and Australia, with obvious CO2 implications for transport (and the same amount of CO2 used in steel production)
    - Stop/reduce British steel production, import steel from overseas, again with the CO2 hit on transport
    - Stop/reduce British steel production, find alternative materials, which would likely lead to increased use of composites, plastics, and all the problems they bring with them

    I don't know nearly enough about it to know, however it certainly doesn't look like a simple black and white decision.
    British steel already cannot compete with the world imports. Perhaps the government could be ideologically consistant and let the "magic of the marketplace" do it's job, and leave the coal in the ground? Seriously though, nothing is ever black and white, but I fail to see how bringing more coal out of the ground to be burned is in any way a positive move for the environment. I doubt very much that Russia and Australia will say "oh, the UK's bringing up x thousand tons now, so we'll drop our production to match". They'll keep mining and it'll probably just lower the world price for coal, making it more appealing and cost-effective to use. The ships that move it will sail anyway, just perhaps to somewhere else. Meanwhile, as someone who lives on top of an old coal mine, another area of the country will be laid waste as a side "benefit". So yes, not black and white, but I'm not seeing any "white" in this equation. Either way, and going way back to your original point, does this look like the actions of a government who have said they're determined to reduce the environmental impact of this country? Do you believe they've done an environmental cost-benefit analysis on mining verses shipping, and given that cost-benefit is one of the reasons why the mines closed in this country in the first place, do you believe that much has since then?
    The views expressed are my own, worth what you've paid for them, are not on behalf of anyone else and not those of any company I work for etc.

  7. #6097
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jturner View Post
    ... Seriously though, nothing is ever black and white, but I fail to see how bringing more coal out of the ground to be burned is in any way a positive move for the environment. I doubt very much that Russia and Australia will say "oh, the UK's bringing up x thousand tons now, so we'll drop our production to match". They'll keep mining and it'll probably just lower the world price for coal, making it more appealing and cost-effective to use. The ships that move it will sail anyway, just perhaps to somewhere else. ...
    The biggest impact surely is the ore? From an environmental standpoint it really makes sense to process the ore at source and move the finished product. The coke is light in comparison and therefore would generate less CO2 in transport than shifting the ore. That would be my shot at it anyway. I am not sure how the scrap metal aspect feeds into that equation but I understand some scrap is needed?

    We have exported scrap for a long time - it used to be in huge piles on the quayside at both Newhaven and Shoreham when I used to dive there.
    We give £350m a week to the EU. Let's give it to Dido Harding instead.

  8. #6098
    Established TDF Member jamesp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    The biggest impact surely is the ore? From an environmental standpoint it really makes sense to process the ore at source and move the finished product. The coke is light in comparison and therefore would generate less CO2 in transport than shifting the ore. That would be my shot at it anyway. I am not sure how the scrap metal aspect feeds into that equation but I understand some scrap is needed?

    We have exported scrap for a long time - it used to be in huge piles on the quayside at both Newhaven and Shoreham when I used to dive there.
    Scrap is a major percentage of the melt, still a blow for the environment.
    When our local steelworks got shut down in `91, off of the back of cost of emissions improvements required, the electric arc furnaces were all stripped and exported to China.
    Electric arc furnaces also use coking coal.

    The site is now a number of soul-less housing estates, and all the pubs in Brymbo have shut.
    Not a bad end for somewhere that was originally set up by Wilkinson (lets see how good your industrial history is) and roundly fucked up by the British miss-management of GKN.

  9. #6099
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    If you have any interest in the history of iron & steel in Britain, here’s not a bad place to start.

    https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Bolckow,_Vaughan

  10. #6100
    Established TDF Member jamesp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John63 View Post
    If you have any interest in the history of iron & steel in Britain, here’s not a bad place to start.

    https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Bolckow,_Vaughan
    The local steel works was started by this guy, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_W...industrialist), who died before your guys were born!


 

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