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  1. #5271
    Established TDF Member steelemonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnCheeky Monkey View Post
    is that really right ?

    don't about 10% of the people cause 90% of the problem (or something vaguely similar)

    replace those 10% with the spawn of the other 90% and all will be well ?
    I hear what you are saying, but if you get rid of the 10%, the space will be taken up by the top 10% of those left and the bottom 90% will continue to breed to take over the available space.
    Paul.
    If God had meant us to breathe underwater, he would have given us larger bank balances.
    Human beings were invented by water as a means of moving itself from one place to another.

  2. #5272
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnCheeky Monkey View Post
    So the question becomes how we change enough of this or around this, bearing in mind human nature, greed and selfishness ?
    Human beings are not always greedy and selfish. They can be very generous and selfless but our current culture encourages and rewards the opposite behaviours - make sure you're ok first, "go on - treat yourself", you're "free" do be whatever you want to be etc etc. Until that lie is exposed, I cannot see much real change happening. We are not free - we all impact on each other and the world around us, whether we like it or not. We are merely parts of a greater system. Those people with their high powered cars need to reach a place where they say "you know what? I'm prepared to give this up because I don't really need it and the planet certainly doesn't". Legislating that on people will just make them resent it more (after all, you're taking away their "freedoms" - just look at the US gun nuts).

    How do we change this around is the billion/trillion dollar question I think! I don't think there will ever be a messiah come and suddenly everyone will renounce consumerism. The culture needs to be changed but its apparent strength is also its weakness - it exists to try to sell you more of itself, so if people generally start wanting more of something else, it changes to push that instead. So the only way forward that I can see (short of revolution, total collapse of society or mass extinction) is that we need to stand up and look at ourselves in the mirror. Before we point the fingers at the Chelsea tractor SUV drivers, we need to make sure we're doing all we can. Be the change you want to see, as they say. Then lead by example, not by blaming. There will be no need to point fingers at anyone if the mainstream suddenly finds itself as the fringe. Whatever encouraged these people to buy into that system will now encourage them to buy into the new one. I hope. I cannot change everyone else but I do have the choice to change my own world and try to be less wasteful (even if that does mean I have to spend the last hour trying to flush the dog shit digester in our back garden, that MrsT has been ignoring so it turned into a dog shit pate jar the size of a large bucket).
    The views expressed are my own, worth what you've paid for them, are not on behalf of anyone else and not those of any company I work for etc.

  3. #5273
    Supergnu Jen - Winged Blob's Avatar
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    This is going back to the point about road users - I've read it previously elsewhere too:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...idents-drivers

  4. #5274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jen - Winged Blob View Post
    This is going back to the point about road users - I've read it previously elsewhere too:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...idents-drivers
    Same as when trafffic lights are turned off/not working, traffic flows much more freely than sitting stationary at a red light when the junction is completely clear.

    Something like a flashing Amber (to proceed if clear) is far more sensible

  5. #5275
    Remember, remember Adrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnCheeky Monkey View Post
    speak for yourself, I'm 11% and I don't

    I think it will be fine

    We could try it and see


    p.s. oh hang on, I just noticed you're in Exeter

    you're not in the 10% sorry

    though, good news - you'll still be around afterwards
    IIRC the cutoff is about $100,000US net worth. That's not a huge amount of housing and pension equity at £70,000.

  6. #5276
    I used to be Cheeky UnCheeky Monkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jturner View Post
    So the only way forward that I can see (short of revolution, total collapse of society or mass extinction) is that we need to stand up and look at ourselves in the mirror. Before we point the fingers at the Chelsea tractor SUV drivers, we need to make sure we're doing all we can. Be the change you want to see, as they say. Then lead by example, not by blaming.
    I'm feeling very challenged at the moment, especially after my adopted home city hosted Greta on Friday ** and my daughter attended

    In my new job I've been asked if I'll go to an African city in 3 weeks time for 2 or 3 days (to a conference and some related stuff)

    Apparently this will/may open doors, get me some work and enable my move to start to be a success (rather than the disappointment I've already moaned about on here)

    I'm struggling with the feeling that this is just 'wrong'




    ** p.s. as for all the interweb gammon banging on (elsewhere) about 'what did it achieve - nothing' .... they are wrong, I've always felt it was important but looking properly at myself in the mirror for the first time since Friday and feeling challenged and conflicted over some things I wouldn't necessarily have been a week ago. Small shifts in perception, over time, accumulate


    p.p.s - Chelsea SUV drivers. Am I one ? I've never thought of myself as one. I have an 11 year old Honda CRV 2.2 diesel. Part time 4wd. It won awards for green credentials when new. It does real life 42 mpg. When I bought it, I was coaching kids rugby, had a young un, felt we needed a big car in the family. Next year it will be illegal to drive it into my nearest city. Last week I was angry about that. This week, I wonder if I should be embracing progress and getting rid of it. It still works though, so I feel its wrong to scrap it. But am I a Chelsea SUV driver - I'm not sure !

  7. #5277
    Established TDF Member Tel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jturner View Post
    You have absolutely no need to dive. Retire and sell up immediately. Or be a hypocrite. Or just accept that we all have choices in life and some people chose to spend money on stupidly powerful cars they don't need, whilst you spend it on diving, and both of you are helping screw the planet.
    I've cut down the number of dives I now do, use boats less, don't do any deep gas dives anymore and when
    I go to a dive site it's never with an empty cab. Swapped out the last vehicle for one with better emissions
    and more gears so it uses less and have done one less overseas holiday a year for the past 3 years now.
    All my existing kit works fine and the only new stuff is service kits. Last actual new bit of new kit I bought
    personally was a DSMB and that was I think about 2 years ago.

    I can't honestly say that all the above has made a massive difference to me and sure individually it probably
    has little impact in the big scale of things, but then if we all did something along the same lines and just didn't
    go for that 3lt SUV, just maybe that combined effort might make at least some difference.

  8. #5278
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnCheeky Monkey View Post
    So the question becomes how we change enough of this or around this, bearing in mind human nature, greed and selfishness ?
    The start point is simple enough. Stop digging up any more fossil carbon. Gas, coal, oil and variants (like lignite). Without that start point the amount of atmospheric CO2 will increase and it is of no consequence whether or not any of us do anything. To be really effective the stop needs to be immediate, but such an aspiration is unrealistic. So we (humans) need to get as close to that as is possible. The new coal mine the Tories have just agreed to should not happen. We should boycott Australian goods and the country itself for all tourism. Stuff like that.

    Again I don't see that happening as no one gives a shit. If you accept that no one gives a shit then the future is mapped out for you and we should work out what we do in that future. In 20 or so years time much of the world will be uninhabitable. In 40 or so years time most agriculture will fail. So these are the factors to work with. A very simple strategy is to be old and die before it happens to you. This - as best I can see - is the strategy adopted by millions of people round the world, certainly the climate denier brigade. If you are under 50 or stupid enough to have had children then you will have to work out your own personal plan. I suggest a gun and some early lessons in how to shoot other people.

    Most people seem to have a plan of not to worry about it, rely on the great British "they" to do something so I don't have to. The current status has moved from "there are things that need to be done and someone else should do them" to the recent upgrade "there are things that need to be done and everybody else needs to do them".

    Foolproof.

  9. #5279
    Remember, remember Adrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    I suggest a gun and some early lessons in how to shoot other people.
    Plus butchery and salting.
    Mah Nà Mah Nà

  10. #5280
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    Last edited by graham_hk; 02-12-2020 at 06:46 PM.


 

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