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  1. #1001
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManualOverride View Post
    No, I was just trying to explore the possibility I might have been wrong about something.
    Thanks for the Dislike by the way.
    Fair enough, I have grown cynical over the progress of this thread. Having made a couple of points in the past when pro remain people have just said, fine but you are wrong, the implication being that I am either thick or biased, without any reasoned argument as to why I am wrong, so I get tired of being treated like an idiot.

    It is similar to the racist attacks. There is an implication that exiters are racist which I find offensive as I doubt there are many other people on here who were declared persona non grata by the apartheid government for campaigning against apartheid.

    David.

  2. #1002
    Old but keen Mark Chase's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari Diver View Post
    Fair enough, I have grown cynical over the progress of this thread. Having made a couple of points in the past when pro remain people have just said, fine but you are wrong, the implication being that I am either thick or biased, without any reasoned argument as to why I am wrong, so I get tired of being treated like an idiot.

    It is similar to the racist attacks. There is an implication that exiters are racist which I find offensive as I doubt there are many other people on here who were declared persona non grata by the apartheid government for campaigning against apartheid.

    David.


    Many Brexit voters have said I am wrong in multiple posts. I have been accused of being a Liberal??? Even a Socialist??? (Any one who knows me would think this hilarious) I have been called unpatriotic. Idts been suggested when I retire to Turkey I dont let the door slam me in the arse on the way out. I was even threatened with being thrown off Stalking Directory for my opinions.. Not for any abusive posts, simply for my opinions.


    Yet here I am still offering argument, still offering objective criticism and still trying to respond to any posts which suggest we are better off outside the EU with counter argument



    I have had some incredible posts thrown at me. I loved this one:


    Originally Posted by 35pluschips
    The voting as was in the EU has dramatically changed since we joined & TBH it had to. Half a dozen members has now become 28, surely you don't think that the EU project will grind to a halt because one country uses a veto? Furthermore, where are they even allowed to use a veto, where's the veto on Nord Stream Two or what about the Postal Workers Directive that's now being challenged in the EU courts by two member states. Germany & France are calling for it to be changed, why hasn't Poland and co used their veto? They don't want the change.

    Bulldozed by China, Russia & the USA, just how are the first two afore countries mentioned run, is that what you look for? The EU will never be able to compete with China in industry, nor will it ever be a serious military threat to Russia, China or the USA. Those three nations have but one leader each, one final decision maker, the EU doesn't.
    I think like this, you cant have serious foreign policy if you haven't got military back up, the EU has foreign policy but no military back up.

    When people say, "well its not perfect", how does that sit with you Chasey, didn't you say you used to be a toolmaker? I was a plumber, I can imagine someone doing a job for me & saying, "well its not perfect". These people are paid damned good money to DO perfect.
    I think its corrupt, unaccountable & a lack of transparency when challenged. The difference between now & the 70s/80s/90s you can read & follow the cases daily & I don't mean through the daily rags either.
    A trading bloc, no problems from me but those days are long gone.



    So in one single post this Brexit supporter has suggested a veto on the EUs efforts to stop Russia controlling 90% of gas supplied to the EU countries and a veto against the Posted Directive which demands equal pay and equal rights for migrant workers in EU countries which was set up to prevent cheep labour being brought in to run factories.

    The country that tried to prevent the Posted Workers Directive??

    Yes you guessed it, the UK

    We did everything we could to block its path and we have basically ignored this directive from day one. The then conservative government said it would damage our competitiveness if we were prevented from importing cheep foreign labour into the UK


    Then the iceing on the cake for me:

    The EU will never be able to compete with China in industry, nor will it ever be a serious military threat to Russia, China or the USA. Those three nations have but one leader each, one final decision maker, the EU doesn't.




    In one sentence this Pro Brexit poster puts forward a compelling argument in favour of a Federal Europe



    But despite this I spent time and energy replying to his complaints and posting links to relevant information on the issues.

    Such is my passion for us to remain in the EU

    I sugest if you have a passion to leave that you invest the same level of effort.

  3. #1003
    Confused? You will be. Jay_Benson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Keasley View Post



    How does it show that our sovereignty has been eroded? Your words not mine, I couldn't tell you if it shows gradual erosion, a power grab, or if that was what we signed up to back in 1973 when we joined the common market.
    The relevant part of the case for this discussion is that the ECJ case was brought based on the Treaty of Rome. this was the founding document of the EU and was signed in 1957. As such it is what we signed up to in 1973 so therefore the 1st referendum confirmed that the British electorate overwhelmingly approved it - the vote went 67%:33% in favour of joining the Common market which included the Treaty of Rome.
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  4. #1004
    bottlefish Stuart Keasley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay_Benson View Post
    The relevant part of the case for this discussion is that the ECJ case was brought based on the Treaty of Rome. this was the founding document of the EU and was signed in 1957. As such it is what we signed up to in 1973 so therefore the 1st referendum confirmed that the British electorate overwhelmingly approved it - the vote went 67%:33% in favour of joining the Common market which included the Treaty of Rome.
    I'm pretty sure the act in question that this was pulled from was the European Communities Act, 1972, quite possibly wrong, and regardless, still before we entered in 1973.....

    Some interesting reading here, from a remainer stance:

    https://www.europeanlawmonitor.org/e...nd-the-eu.html

    The parliamentary review that it refers to...

    https://publications.parliament.uk/p.../633/63304.htm

    if I've understood it correctly, I think it says something like :

    EU laws rank supreme over UK laws, however this isn't a loss of sovereignty because the fact that EU laws rank supreme over UK laws is only possible because of a UK law, and decisions made within UK courts.

    And just to balance it, an opposing view from a Brexit stance:

    https://lawyersforbritain.org/brexit...-national-laws
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  5. #1005
    Confused? You will be. Jay_Benson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Keasley View Post
    I'm pretty sure the act in question that this was pulled from was the European Communities Act, 1972, quite possibly wrong, and regardless, still before we entered in 1973.....

    Some interesting reading here, from a remainer stance:

    https://www.europeanlawmonitor.org/e...nd-the-eu.html

    The parliamentary review that it refers to...

    https://publications.parliament.uk/p.../633/63304.htm

    if I've understood it correctly, I think it says something like :

    EU laws rank supreme over UK laws, however this isn't a loss of sovereignty because the fact that EU laws rank supreme over UK laws is only possible because of a UK law, and decisions made within UK courts.

    And just to balance it, an opposing view from a Brexit stance:

    https://lawyersforbritain.org/brexit...-national-laws
    For goodness sake Stuart - you have put a balanced post up - the last thing this thread needs is that - balance. No need for that sort of behaviour!

    I think you have nailed it with the bit I have highlighted. We still have sovereignty, and have never lost it. In much the same way we subject ourselves to an external court when it comes to Human Rights - external review is rarely a bad thing and normally raises standards and improves behaviours whether national government or a small organisation - no-one has a monopoly on being right (except politicians who will never admit to being wrong, ever).
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  6. #1006
    Old but keen Mark Chase's Avatar
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    Great post Stuart.

  7. #1007
    Established TDF Member Barrygoss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Keasley View Post
    I'm pretty sure the act in question that this was pulled from was the European Communities Act, 1972, quite possibly wrong, and regardless, still before we entered in 1973.....

    Some interesting reading here, from a remainer stance:

    https://www.europeanlawmonitor.org/e...nd-the-eu.html

    The parliamentary review that it refers to...

    https://publications.parliament.uk/p.../633/63304.htm

    if I've understood it correctly, I think it says something like :

    EU laws rank supreme over UK laws, however this isn't a loss of sovereignty because the fact that EU laws rank supreme over UK laws is only possible because of a UK law, and decisions made within UK courts.

    And just to balance it, an opposing view from a Brexit stance:

    https://lawyersforbritain.org/brexit...-national-laws
    A decent balanced post.

    So whatís total sovereignty worth?
    Bearing in mind we have total sovereignty under the EU, just with repercussions (just like you have total sovereignty at work, but if you donít turn up, there are repercussions)

    So what it worth, this reduced sovereignty our government signed up to


    B
    Rebreathers are like women; they pretend to love you, whilst taking all your money and trying to kill you.

  8. #1008
    Established TDF Member Doomanic's Avatar
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    Were YOU aware that the UK Government is consulting publically on the future Trade Agreement with the USA?

    Now hands up everyone who knew it closes TODAY?

    Fill in their online survey here & have YOUR say on chlorinated chicken, relaxed health and safety laws and other concerns…

    https://consultations.trade.gov.uk/p...s-with-the-us/
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    Seriously, forget about sidemount - it's bollocks.

  9. #1009
    Established TDF Member Doomanic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    Seriously, forget about sidemount - it's bollocks.

  10. #1010
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    The latest pearler is that we can't, in fact, crash out on WTO terms. We are an EU member of the WTO and will have to negotiate independent membership. Which will take years.


 

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