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  1. #1
    Happy atheist, despite the "evidence"...
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    Leaving the EU (not really a rant)...

    ... but there's nowhere else to post.

    I voted remain in 2016, but accepted the result of the referendum, assuming that our leaders would be able to put together a plan for our EU exit. I was convinced that the concept of a second plebiscite was wrong.

    The last couple of years have demonstrated that there's nothing of the sort in the pipeline, let alone on the table, so I suspect we're heading towards a no deal Brexit. I have slowly changed my mind and think that "the people" deserve a chance to say yes or no to a no deal Brexit.

    I'm not going to get into more arguments, as they're utterly futile.

    I have, reluctantly, written to my (Labour) MP asking him to back a second referendum, and detailing the reasons why I've become in favour of said vote. I've also asked him to try to persuade Jeremy Corbyn to show a little backbone and leadership...

    IF you feel the same way, please write a personal letter / email to your MP. Don't copy 'n' paste somebody else's text. Do sign petitions as well, but not instead of, writing.

    All contact details can be found here.

    Write or don't write, it's your call; just don't be apathetic if you feel strongly.

    Finally, I'm lucky enough to be fairly sure that I'll survive quite well after our departure, but as a fully fledged SJW I feel compelled to fight on behalf of those who won't. I suspect it's pointless and that the usual delicates will complain that I'm patronising and antagonistic, but feel I / we shouldn't go down without a fight.
    Happy to be a feminist SJ(K)W snowflake in a godless universe, no matter what some experts think.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkP View Post
    ... but there's nowhere else to post.

    I voted remain in 2016, but accepted the result of the referendum, assuming that our leaders would be able to put together a plan for our EU exit. I was convinced that the concept of a second plebiscite was wrong.

    The last couple of years have demonstrated that there's nothing of the sort in the pipeline, let alone on the table, so I suspect we're heading towards a no deal Brexit. I have slowly changed my mind and think that "the people" deserve a chance to say yes or no to a no deal Brexit.

    I'm not going to get into more arguments, as they're utterly futile.

    I have, reluctantly, written to my (Labour) MP asking him to back a second referendum, and detailing the reasons why I've become in favour of said vote. I've also asked him to try to persuade Jeremy Corbyn to show a little backbone and leadership...

    IF you feel the same way, please write a personal letter / email to your MP. Don't copy 'n' paste somebody else's text. Do sign petitions as well, but not instead of, writing.

    All contact details can be found here.

    Write or don't write, it's your call; just don't be apathetic if you feel strongly.

    Finally, I'm lucky enough to be fairly sure that I'll survive quite well after our departure, but as a fully fledged SJW I feel compelled to fight on behalf of those who won't. I suspect it's pointless and that the usual delicates will complain that I'm patronising and antagonistic, but feel I / we shouldn't go down without a fight.
    You have every right to your point of view and whether I agree with you or not is irrelevant. I will alwas defend that right.
    I sincerely hope this thread doesn’t descend into the same as previous ones on the same subject and become a place of abusive insult. My fingers are crossed. I hope not to see f**k, wit, pencil, bigot etc and suchlike.

  3. #3
    Established TDF Member
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    You may also want to Join here:
    https://www.peoples-vote.uk/

    I spent yesterday evening with someone who voted for Brexit and we had a really nice civil discussion, we looking into his reasons and centered in on him just not liking David Cameron and wanting to ensure he didn't get his way.
    Throughout the evening his thought process went from "And I'd do it again!" to "I don't know what I'd do if there were another vote" to "I'd probably vote to remain"

    All my discussions on the topic so far have been very civil and respectful, hopefully that continues here without any Trumpingtonboriscuntyitous

  4. #4
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Despite being part of the group of people that ended up swearing at one another in the last big thread I can assure everyone that was not my start point or overall intention. I honestly wanted to understand why people voted for something which I regarded (and still do) as idiotic. I believe my questions have been answered in that respect and am happy to start off with no intention of another bun fight.

    So, moving to the new subject of a second vote and whether there is merit in canvassing one's MP for one.

    It is my belief that a large majority of the Tory backers of Brexit simply want to pursue the Britannia Unchained model and change the UK into something that very few people will find pleasant. membership of the EU, or indeed EEA, EFTA, WTO or BSAC are neither here nor there. This change simply provides an opportunity to move the country to a new position and it is a one-off opportunity that almost certainly will never, ever come again. Due to that uniqueness there is no price, no level of deception, no political sacrifice that is not worth making. This is more important than individual careers or whether the Tory party is ever electable ever again. It is essential that the Henry VIII rules are there to stop any attempt by parliament to hold the government to account or to prevent the abolition and introduction of laws that facilitate the Unchained model.

    If I am right there is no chance whatsoever of any meaningful vote or meaningful deal. There cannot be and will not be any additional plebiscite. There cannot be and will not be any debate by the parliament that impedes or obstructs the imposition of a new regime on the UK. There can be no tolerance of things like the Good Friday Agreement which might prevent this plan and so the fate of Northern Ireland is inconsequential to the hard core people. My hypothesis that this is the goal is greatly strengthened by the appointment of one of the book's authors to the role of Brexit minister. It is impossible that May did not know Raab is a co-author of the book, it is impossible she does not know of the contents of the book and therefore I believe it is impossible she does not agree with the book and sees it as a manifesto to Brexit.

    There will be no second referendum, there will be no parliamentary veto and there will be no meaningful deal beyond agreement on sharing things like Police data and other security related information. It is imperative that the UK cannot be overruled by the ECJ or other body and that the citizens of the UK are not granted rights that the EU citizenship accords. This is, was and always will be the goal of the current government.

    The idiot Corbyn knows this and still fails to combat what is happening. He has deluded himself into the belief that the catastrophic results of the hard Brexit will cause the present government to fall and he will be swept to power on a wave of popular support. With all due respect to the sad old duffer this is utter bollocks and IMHO the Tories would (and probably will) win again as the popularity of unfettered bigotry towards immigrants has not diminished. The intensity and absurdity of the orchestrated smear campaign against him shames us all and makes UK politics a laughing stock at a time when the need for solidarity and good sense could not be higher. The vitriol and dishonesty of the lies and the sources even within the Labour party itself suggest to me that there is much much more than meets the eye.

    Furthermore the softening up process for the shit has begun. The preparations are beginning for the planned no deal exit. I have already had one of our International couriers writing to us to explain how they can help (at a price) with our imports and exports next year. As the time gets nearer the softening will intensify. The moronic spectacle of May handing over £4Bn in aid to get back a deal we have already whilst robot dancing in South Africa is the start of the long and expensive whitewash.

    So to address the OP and the point of whether or not to attempt to persuade the powerless and the clueless to try to offer a "people's vote" or whatever today's phraseology is, my question is upon what will we polled? Do you want May's BS deal or no deal at all? I would support a vote that offers May's BS or EEA in order I could vote EEA. But - with all consideration to the right of the people to decide - I fear that any second referendum will be along the lines of do you want to be whipped or beaten. Even assuming that my MP has any say in it or is not (like many others) bribed into submission by the promise of the Unchained model.

    Honestly? Look out for yourself. If you can possibly do so leave the UK. What is coming is going to be extraordinary, beyond the imagination of the people who voted for it. Eli Eli Lama Sabachthani? As a well know Palestinian might have said.

  5. #5
    Cheeky Monkey... Paul Evans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    Despite being part of the group of people that ended up swearing at one another in the last big thread I can assure everyone that was not my start point or overall intention. I honestly wanted to understand why people voted for something which I regarded (and still do) as idiotic. I believe my questions have been answered in that respect and am happy to start off with no intention of another bun fight.

    So, moving to the new subject of a second vote and whether there is merit in canvassing one's MP for one.

    It is my belief that a large majority of the Tory backers of Brexit simply want to pursue the Britannia Unchained model and change the UK into something that very few people will find pleasant. membership of the EU, or indeed EEA, EFTA, WTO or BSAC are neither here nor there. This change simply provides an opportunity to move the country to a new position and it is a one-off opportunity that almost certainly will never, ever come again. Due to that uniqueness there is no price, no level of deception, no political sacrifice that is not worth making. This is more important than individual careers or whether the Tory party is ever electable ever again. It is essential that the Henry VIII rules are there to stop any attempt by parliament to hold the government to account or to prevent the abolition and introduction of laws that facilitate the Unchained model.

    If I am right there is no chance whatsoever of any meaningful vote or meaningful deal. There cannot be and will not be any additional plebiscite. There cannot be and will not be any debate by the parliament that impedes or obstructs the imposition of a new regime on the UK. There can be no tolerance of things like the Good Friday Agreement which might prevent this plan and so the fate of Northern Ireland is inconsequential to the hard core people. My hypothesis that this is the goal is greatly strengthened by the appointment of one of the book's authors to the role of Brexit minister. It is impossible that May did not know Raab is a co-author of the book, it is impossible she does not know of the contents of the book and therefore I believe it is impossible she does not agree with the book and sees it as a manifesto to Brexit.

    There will be no second referendum, there will be no parliamentary veto and there will be no meaningful deal beyond agreement on sharing things like Police data and other security related information. It is imperative that the UK cannot be overruled by the ECJ or other body and that the citizens of the UK are not granted rights that the EU citizenship accords. This is, was and always will be the goal of the current government.

    The idiot Corbyn knows this and still fails to combat what is happening. He has deluded himself into the belief that the catastrophic results of the hard Brexit will cause the present government to fall and he will be swept to power on a wave of popular support. With all due respect to the sad old duffer this is utter bollocks and IMHO the Tories would (and probably will) win again as the popularity of unfettered bigotry towards immigrants has not diminished. The intensity and absurdity of the orchestrated smear campaign against him shames us all and makes UK politics a laughing stock at a time when the need for solidarity and good sense could not be higher. The vitriol and dishonesty of the lies and the sources even within the Labour party itself suggest to me that there is much much more than meets the eye.

    Furthermore the softening up process for the shit has begun. The preparations are beginning for the planned no deal exit. I have already had one of our International couriers writing to us to explain how they can help (at a price) with our imports and exports next year. As the time gets nearer the softening will intensify. The moronic spectacle of May handing over £4Bn in aid to get back a deal we have already whilst robot dancing in South Africa is the start of the long and expensive whitewash.

    So to address the OP and the point of whether or not to attempt to persuade the powerless and the clueless to try to offer a "people's vote" or whatever today's phraseology is, my question is upon what will we polled? Do you want May's BS deal or no deal at all? I would support a vote that offers May's BS or EEA in order I could vote EEA. But - with all consideration to the right of the people to decide - I fear that any second referendum will be along the lines of do you want to be whipped or beaten. Even assuming that my MP has any say in it or is not (like many others) bribed into submission by the promise of the Unchained model.

    Honestly? Look out for yourself. If you can possibly do so leave the UK. What is coming is going to be extraordinary, beyond the imagination of the people who voted for it. Eli Eli Lama Sabachthani? As a well know Palestinian might have said.
    While I fear this only all to true, I think we should all try with Marks proposal, its to important not to give it a go.

    After a few conversations with Brexiters that are now nowhere near as sure about their beliefs I think the secrecy of the ballot box would show quite a shift from the previous vote...........
    “Attitude is a choice. Happiness is a choice. Optimism is a choice. Kindness is a choice. Giving is a choice. Respect is a choice. Whatever choice you make makes you. Choose wisely.”
    Roy T. Bennett, The Light in the Heart

  6. #6
    Self Defecating The Real Paulus's Avatar
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    There has never been a warts and all debate on our relationship with the EU....until now. It's a debate we should have had many years ago.

    Remainers and Leavers alike in most instances voted in relative ignorance.
    So I'm all for another referendum. I guess it would be a decisive majority for remain.
    And I'm happy to remain.....remain a minority opinion

    Seems very unlikely to happen.

  7. #7
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Real Paulus View Post
    There has never been a warts and all debate on our relationship with the EU....until now. It's a debate we should have had many years ago.

    Remainers and Leavers alike in most instances voted in relative ignorance.
    ...
    I would agree with this. The EU really has little impact on the daily life of it's citizens. Most people would struggle to name their MEP. The widespread misunderstanding of the EU and it's relationship to the UK and other member states is promoted by the media and largely used as an excuse to cover up the failure of the domestic government. The understandable dismay that has been caused by so-called "austerity" is totally something of the Tories' making. Whilst the bottom 4 deciles have suffered the richest in society have done very well. At the same time government debt has grown out of control to unimaginable levels not seen in hundreds of years, whilst the media frighten would be Labour voters with the nonsense that they (Labour) would borrow us into oblivion.

    To me that means there really is not issue and for the most part we can carry on with our lives and leave all this crap to the politicians. For sure some people have an axe to grind. The fishing industry for example. But really they should be pissed off with our fishing representative, one N Farage, who is too lazy and pathetic to even turn up to meetings whilst creaming it on the expenses. But that is the problem with voting for a sack of shit like him when he openly says he wants to destroy the EU. Really the problem is the retards that vote UKIP - with a pro EU representation in the EP or even ones that can be arsed to do their job, the UK would probably get more out the EU than it has. For the people that want out altogether then vote UKIP in the general election, but hey they have got what they wanted, largely at the expense of the soon-to-be-bankrupt fishing industry.

    In an infantile fit of temper we have thrown our toys out the pram. Thus far nanny has not dragged herself away from Angry Birds to pick them up. I fear the toys are lost for ever.

  8. #8
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    Bollocks.
    Bigotry.
    Shit.
    BS.
    Crap.
    A sack of shit.
    Retards.

    All in just two posts. Good start

  9. #9
    Established TDF Member jamesp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by braun View Post
    You have every right to your point of view and whether I agree with you or not is irrelevant. I will alwas defend that right.
    I sincerely hope this thread doesn’t descend into the same as previous ones on the same subject and become a place of abusive insult. My fingers are crossed. I hope not to see f**k, wit, pencil, bigot etc and suchlike.
    Memes, don't forget the memes.

    If you want to claim the moral high ground, and take a swipe at others in the same post; remember how little of substance you added to the debate.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post

    SNIP

    largely at the expense of the soon-to-be-bankrupt fishing industry.

    SNIP
    I don’t know much of politics, other than democracy has failed, but for me, as a diver and marine biologist, a bankrupt fishing industry sounds like a positive to me.


 
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