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  1. #4581
    Confused? You will be. Jay_Benson's Avatar
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    Well the asylum is back and functioning(?). Johnson keeps his record as a liar going when he says that there is progress in the talks about a deal - part of that process of talking is having something to say the evidence from Brussels is that they are presenting nothing except a sham*.

    It appears that both Johnson an Corbyn would like an election - but will the Commons let it happen - the fixed term parliament requires a 2/3 majority to call an election and by no means do all of the Labour Party want that. I suspect that the other parties will be wanting for any repercussions of either leaving on 31 October or not leaving then to come to fruition so that the Tories suffer the full pain at the ballot box - this appears to be beyond the grasp of Corbyn.

    *. -copyright D Cummings
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  2. #4582
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay_Benson View Post
    ... I suspect that the other parties will be wanting for any repercussions of either leaving on 31 October or not leaving then to come to fruition so that the Tories suffer the full pain at the ballot box - this appears to be beyond the grasp of Corbyn.
    Whilst the attraction of this strategy is clear from a political point of view is it the right thing? Like many people I would enjoy the leave voters being booted out of jobs, having their pension taken away and suffering real hardship. The problem with this is that ultimately I will end up paying for it. Likewise if the idiot government get to unchain us and bring about the new world order I will end up paying for it. I have got to this point in life realising that "natural justice" or karma of whatever you want to call it does not exist. The geriatric racist element of leave will get the triple lock and die peacefully in a rest home paid for out of my tax contribution. They will not die sleeping in a shop doorway in a blanket soaked in someone else's piss - which would be karma

    When dealing with children it is sometimes a requirement to ignore what they want and to do what is right. Often no thanks is received for this. In the long run it is generally seen as the correct action. If you indulge childishness you will pay for that indulgence many many times over. Brexit is childishness made political. Infantile stroppiness. Matt Lucas' "don't like it". It is now time to stop indulging the kiddies and for some grown up politics. Perhaps the injection of some political heavyweights into the opposition after rejection by Alexander and the blackshirts will do that - possibly this is the turning point. I hope so.

  3. #4583
    Confused? You will be. Jay_Benson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    Whilst the attraction of this strategy is clear from a political point of view is it the right thing? Like many people I would enjoy the leave voters being booted out of jobs, having their pension taken away and suffering real hardship. The problem with this is that ultimately I will end up paying for it. Likewise if the idiot government get to unchain us and bring about the new world order I will end up paying for it. I have got to this point in life realising that "natural justice" or karma of whatever you want to call it does not exist. The geriatric racist element of leave will get the triple lock and die peacefully in a rest home paid for out of my tax contribution. They will not die sleeping in a shop doorway in a blanket soaked in someone else's piss - which would be karma

    When dealing with children it is sometimes a requirement to ignore what they want and to do what is right. Often no thanks is received for this. In the long run it is generally seen as the correct action. If you indulge childishness you will pay for that indulgence many many times over. Brexit is childishness made political. Infantile stroppiness. Matt Lucas' "don't like it". It is now time to stop indulging the kiddies and for some grown up politics. Perhaps the injection of some political heavyweights into the opposition after rejection by Alexander and the blackshirts will do that - possibly this is the turning point. I hope so.
    It would appear that I was wrong - again - and Corbyn has realised that he is being played.

    I was interesting to see Alan Duncan being interviewed yesterday - he is clearly not happy with the way that Johnson is behaving and the direction he is taking the Tory party but he is complicit as he is not voting against the government - you could see the anguish on his face and it won't take much more for him to turn against the government, he isn't alone in this pickle.
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  4. #4584
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay_Benson View Post
    ..
    I was interesting to see Alan Duncan being interviewed yesterday - he is clearly not happy with the way that Johnson is behaving and the direction he is taking the Tory party but he is complicit as he is not voting against the government - you could see the anguish on his face and it won't take much more for him to turn against the government, he isn't alone in this pickle.
    The party has been split for a very long time. Cameron thought he had an answer...

    You can see what happens if you vote against the coup - Soames is an early casualty. We are in the endgame and the level of dirty tricks can only increase. The spectacular lie that some sort of new deal is possible is still swallowed by the most gullible but it is clear to anyone with a basic level of intelligence that this is made up. This takes us back to the binary decision of crash out or stay in. To stay in the best route is a referendum but time is not on the side of that so a revocation is something that really must be considered. Whoever revokes Art. 50 is likely to receive some very serious shit from the press and the likes of Farage. When that is spread about then people like Mr Duncan will be in the firing line.

    This thread started with a question about a second vote and we are still in that position. It is still the best option for the government and should be the course of action. The Robbins agreement required a compromise too far for certain groups (like the DUP). Therefore the vote is in or out and out in this instance means right out with no agreement. If that (out) were to be the result then the next stage should be an independence referendum for Scotland and reunification for Northern Ireland - the issue of Wales really depends on it's vote in-out. The UK should then rearrange itself accordingly before the departure of England with or without Wales from the EU. Time should be given to build a hard border with Scotland.

    A great deal of heartache and animus could have been avoided if this approach was taken after ref 1 and before Art. 50 was triggered. The Anglo-Scottish border would be a much easier prospect than a hard border in Ireland. Once constructed Ireland and Scotland could join Schengen if they wished.

    The CTA with the Irish Republic should have also been stopped as part of the process. It is inconceivable that this could continue between the EU and a third country.

  5. #4585
    Established WTF Member Spirit of Guernsey's Avatar
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    As an interested outsider in all this, I wish that I had a crystal ball, hard to predict where the end point will be.

    If things go down the second referendum route or Art. 50 is revoked, I can see a general election with a similar result to the recent EU election, giving no overall majority and a governing alliance of the Tories and Brexit Party. Beyond the effects this would have on the relationship with Europe, you would also have 5 years of Farage holding the balance of power.
    There are four varieties in society: the lovers, the ambitious, observers and fools. The fools are the happiest.
    Hippolyte Taine French critic and historian (1828-93)

  6. #4586
    Established TDF Member Wardy_uk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spirit of Guernsey View Post
    As an interested outsider in all this, I wish that I had a crystal ball, hard to predict where the end point will be.

    If things go down the second referendum route or Art. 50 is revoked, I can see a general election with a similar result to the recent EU election, giving no overall majority and a governing alliance of the Tories and Brexit Party. Beyond the effects this would have on the relationship with Europe, you would also have 5 years of Farage holding the balance of power.
    Farage won’t get elected... the Brexit party might do well, but he’s unelectable

    Regardless of outcome a GE leading to another hung parliament is inevitable now, sooner rather than later I think... the longer this can be held off though, the better as the Tories lurch ever more to the right they will hemorrhage support....

  7. #4587
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spirit of Guernsey View Post
    ... a governing alliance of the Tories and Brexit Party. ....
    The Brexit company have said they will only ally with the Tories if they go for no deal. If so the voters they gain must vote specifically for no deal. If the Tory party abandons it's current madness and try for a deal of some description the Brexit company will fight them and dilute the leave vote. If the Tories stay with the wingnuts then many of their MPs are likely to leave and dilute the Tory vote and split off Tory remainers.

    The right/leave has the same issue as left/remain. The split is four ways right/stay/leave and left/stay/leave.

    This is why a referendum on the one subject of Brexit is the best route. Once that is decided people can go back to their tribal idiocy and choose whether to back bonkers Boris or magic grandpa.

  8. #4588
    Established TDF Member jamesp's Avatar
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    Over two years go, I said that the whole purpose was to advance "no deal"; any decision or concession was to further the likely hood of no deal.

    So, was I wrong, about that or anything else on the Brexit balls up?

    As someone who has actively campaigned for Conservative candidates in several general elections; they will never get me doorstepping for them again and I fully support their utter extinction in as soon as possible.

    Could one of the (if there are any willing to stick their head up) "We got our country back" bods please explain how having a third of the cabinet that is "first generation" british has achieved that?
    Even BJ spent most of his life as a dual national.


    We british truly are an apathetic, and utterly useless bunch of dross.

  9. #4589
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesp View Post

    We british truly are an apathetic, and utterly useless bunch of dross.
    I have travelled the world and unfortunately this is true

  10. #4590
    TDF Member Moleshome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divemouse View Post
    Just seen this on FB - not fact checked yet.


    JS Greenwood is feeling disappointed.
    28 August at 17:25
    I've spoken to far too many people over the last few weeks who don't know the real backstory/goal to a no-deal Brexit for those with too much of a say in it happening. I'm sorry to bore everyone who's already sick of this with more on it, but regardless of views on leave/remain, the current push for "no deal" is incredibly important to understand. Here's my attempt at a readable, 2 minute summary...

    Britain lost its "empire" that had mainly benefited a minority over the course of the two world wars. We stayed rich from a second metaphorical empire, though - a financial one - from the 1940s/50s onwards that in some ways replaced this. This empire was based around historic crown dependencies; creating tax-haven states like the Cayman Islands and running it as a business. I say "we got rich", what I mean is "the rich" / "the institutions that supported it" having a new way of staying rich. The "we" is "almost nobody I know". Almost. Those who I do know (banking, investing, etc), will talk about this. Those niches have done exceptionally well for themselves for decades, it's no secret. Their gain has had minimal down-side to the average British citizen other than a bit of loss of tax revenue in the big picture, though. And it's actually helped build out the UK's leading, global position in banking - that which we see 'above the waterline'. This has greatly helped the economy over the decades as a major industry, other than for that unrelated 2008 debacle (a conversation for another day).

    So, the impact to you and me of this desire for tax avoidance has been negligible. Maybe even positive. So far. That was until the EU Anti Tax Avoidance Directive (ATAD) was defined. If we stay in the EU, then the UK has to abide by this and finally start closing these loopholes. And quickly. At that point, The Paradise Papers leak will be a drop in the ocean of what actually becomes visible of the hiding of money by those with historic estates, owning media conglomerates, and a bunch who are in or lobbying the government. HMRC can follow swiftly after.

    But why is no-deal brexit now the thing? Because May's deal had something in it that was deemed completely unacceptable. I'm not talking about the Irish backstop. The deal agreed to implement the tax transparency laws even though we were leaving the EU. And it gets voted down, repeatedly, as A Bad Deal. Of course this voting, as with brexit itself, wasn't solely about tax - as that only affects a small minority. But brexit-with-the-deal was no longer enough to keep money hidden, and some of that small minority have positions that shape both policy and public perception. So no-deal-brexit is now the tax-avoiding answer they're looking for and we slowly inch towards that outcome. Why don't most newspapers report on this? Any idea just how much the billionaires who own the Mail, Express, etc, have in the Cayman Islands? Neither do I... because we don't have tax transparency laws. Oh. Right. It's not as simple a message to sell to us as "take our borders back".

    The great swindle here is convincing the everyman this is all about giving the people power back under brexit - that it's economically better for them and the country. When it's actually ensuring the 0.1% can benefit at the expense of everything and everyone else. "No deal brexit" = "tax avoidance can continue" and everything else can suffer. The upside in avoiding this and the further regulation that will follow is so huge to those people that any impact to the overall UK economy or the average person is completely irrelevant to them. Especially given the number of them who don't live in the UK anyway. The packaging of this as "what the people want" when it's "what the rich want" is Orwellian in its genius.

    Let's be clear that I'm not some radicalised left wing socialist-activist. Or a tin-foil-hat paranoid. I've always voted Tory, I'm a banker, and I love a free market economy. Fiscal conservative, social centre-liberal if you really want to pigeonhole me. My primary motivation is what drives the UK economy upward, though, and sees the country as a whole prosper, given how invested in it my future is. This, however, is screwing the 99%, the economy, the country, and everything else. For the sake of those that never need to do a day's work in their lives.

    Remain or Leave... unless you have money hidden away offshore, "no deal" is not being promoted for your benefit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    The avoidance of the EU tax directive is real enough. As is the agenda of the Unchained manifesto for the UK post leaving. The idea is simply to make the UK a fundamentally different place to that which it is now. Some people might be in favour some against but the choice is not being given because it is not being discussed. Cameron, May and Johnson are all liars and vary only in the intensity and transparency of their deceit. Some of what is planned is given a public airing in the output of Professor Minford and the Economists for Brexit team.

    If more than 50 percent of the electorate who voted had voted for these changes then we should embrace them and accept that decision. However it is clear most people voted about something else altogether. The massive campaign of lies to persuade many people that no real economic harm would occur was backed by exactly the people in Dawn's Facebook C&P. Without that lie I doubt there were enough people who hated immigrants enough they are prepared to destroy their children's future to get the vote over the line.

    Now that some of the facts are starting to come out the deceit must intensify to keep up the momentum. Manufactured outrage at how the parliament - the sovereign body - is ignoring the will of the people (well 25% of them) to leave. If only. Even parliament are opposed and it is now just the far right extremists wallowing in the bribery and corruption that tax avoidance will bring them or has already brought them. Free housing and a slap on the back from D J Trump for non entity pub bore Farage for example.

    I can only assume that this game is clear to see from the other side, that people like Tusk and Barnier can see what is happening just as we can. If they didn't have their snouts in the same trough they might just say something. But no, we are in "the perfect storm". I hope you have an umbrella.
    Isn't it too late to sidestep ATAD though? Wasn't it implemented at the beginning of this year?


 

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