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  1. #4881
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shapeshifter View Post
    Basically agree, but only because I think it's the best, or perhaps only, way to cancel the whole thing.

    Except.

    1/ Why would the Conservatives do that? They might lose.
    2/ Why would Labour do it? The conservatives might win.
    3/ Referendums, especially simple majority ones, are a generally poor way of deciding anything really important.
    Yeah, I don't see much chance of it. Thanks to the contributions on here and additional background reading and research I think I have a basic handle on what drove the debate and why so many people voted to leave something they didn't know the first thing about. I think I understand why the rational arguments failed and still do.

    If I am correct in my hypothesis then I fear that nothing, not even a second vote, will ever put this to bed. It will rumble on until the older boomer leave voters die. Even if we leave it will still be the source of argument for another 15+ years as the UK tries and fails to get the trade deals needed to keep our economy going. As time passes more and more will see it for the mistake it is and the resultant pressure to rejoin will meet ever greater resistance by those unwilling to accept the truth. I think it is deeply rooted in the age demographic and this is why the second vote is resisted, but every day that passes changes the age demographic to a more pro EU more European viewpoint. For those that want to leave the sooner the second vote the better chance they have of winning it.

  2. #4882
    bottlefish Stuart Keasley's Avatar
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    Article in the Guardian : "Don’t be fooled – the EU is no defender of workers’ rights"

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...multinationals
    Last edited by Stuart Keasley; 27-10-2019 at 07:49 AM.
    Please visit bottlefish for my personal web site, Quay Cameras to chat to me about the cameras and kit that I sell

  3. #4883
    Could start a fight in a convent. Mikael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Keasley View Post
    Article in the Guardian : "Don’t be fooled – the EU is no defender of workers’ rights"

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...multinationals
    It is as if member states retain (mostly) their sovereignty.....

    Some commentators suggested that the EU sets minimum standards which help bring newer member states up on policy areas such as workers' rights.
    Why is it that with everything in life I always find a more difficult way of doing it (and not intentionally)

  4. #4884
    Confused? You will be. Jay_Benson's Avatar
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    Instead of taking back control the agreement that Johnson is wanting us to sign up to instead gives the EU direct input into parts of the British legal system during the transition period (one to three years) without ANY say in that legislation an on an ongoing basis for Northern Ireland. Now I like the EU as we are part of it now but I want to have a say as we do currently through both the European Parliament AND the UK Parliament which elect the European Council.
    So now we know one more lie from Johnson - it isn’t about taking back control. The other lies about safeguarding rights of workers, the environment etc are coming out from other sources too - the ERG are trying to fire the starting gun for the race to the bottom.

    https://infacts.org/take-back-contro...ling-our-legs/
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  5. #4885
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay_Benson View Post
    ...
    So now we know one more lie from Johnson - it isn’t about taking back control. The other lies about safeguarding rights of workers, the environment etc are coming out from other sources too - the ERG are trying to fire the starting gun for the race to the bottom.
    It never was about control or any other BS. As you rightly say it is - for the wealthy - a race to lower standards and increase inequality to US levels. I don't think there was ever anyone that cared about sovereignty or taking control or any of the other pack of lies. These lies were designed to shut people up that had a legitimate negative view of the idea. It is telling how many right wing commentators who care absolutely nothing about these issues rush to provide examples of why the EU doesn't protect something they don't care about - it's to silence people like me. Fail.

    As it stands now there is virtually nobody left trying to lie and say we will be better off or that there is some advantage to leaving - the whole debate has simply moved on to that was the vote and we must do it because were 17 million people who fell for it. The far right are admitting there is nothing to be gained, but it is the will of some of the people and so no one else matters. But what they mean is they want it and tough shit if anyone else doesn't.

    I honestly don't know how many people out it the wider public are still taken in by the lies. Quite a lot that is for sure. But not IMHO enough to vote for the proposed agreement. But in true quitter style Johnson has achieved his lifelong ambition of getting to be PM only to call an election just to get voted out. Seriously, these people are totally bonkers.

  6. #4886
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    A quick scan of yahoo's front page (google doesn't work and I am in china right now) will show that strictly enjoys more airtime than the countries future. It is a scant reminder that most don't give a shit about their future and are therefore incapable of doing what is "best" (note I don't give opinion over what is best) and why democracy, whilst fundamentally correct, is unfortunately a failed concept

  7. #4887
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by graham_hk View Post
    A quick scan of yahoo's front page (google doesn't work and I am in china right now) will show that strictly enjoys more airtime than the countries future. It is a scant reminder that most don't give a shit about their future and are therefore incapable of doing what is "best" (note I don't give opinion over what is best) and why democracy, whilst fundamentally correct, is unfortunately a failed concept
    A brief glimpse of history will show you that humanity is flawed in many ways. Our understanding of things is malleable and sufficiently so that - as an example - the so-called "Christians" of Spain felt that it was acceptable to torture people to the point of death simply because their interpretation of the Bible was slightly different to their own. The people of the UK are now caught up in a mass delusion that has been engineered by a deliberate campaign of lies and deception. People believe the EU is problematic to them and that immigration is "out of control". Many believe that the Labour party under Blair deliberately encouraged immigration and now the numbers of immigrants are sufficient that soon the English will be foreigners in their own country.

    The result is emotional fear and this results in an unwillingness to confront reality. The same applies to the rather obvious disaster of climate change that is unfolding right now in front of the eyes of every single person on the planet.

    The unscrupulous will always take advantage of this human reaction to events. The Inquisitors grew rich on their power just as the Brexiteers will grow rich at the expense of the country. As you are in China you didn't see Channel 4 last night and the explanation of how the US intends to make a vast fortune from the trade deal that will cost the NHS £500m a week in additional drugs charges. Maybe the producers overcooked it a bit so lets be fair and pick an arbitrary figure a bit smaller. How about £350m a week?

    In 20 years time everyone will say it was a mistake. Too late then.

  8. #4888
    Established TDF Member Doomanic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    Seriously, forget about sidemount - it's bollocks.

  9. #4889
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    Quote Originally Posted by graham_hk View Post
    A quick scan of yahoo's front page (google doesn't work and I am in china right now) will show that strictly enjoys more airtime than the countries future. It is a scant reminder that most don't give a shit about their future and are therefore incapable of doing what is "best" (note I don't give opinion over what is best) and why democracy, whilst fundamentally correct, is unfortunately a failed concept
    I think failed implementation would be a better description. Democracy as a concept works best when everyone's vote and influence is equal, when they're bound by a sense of belonging to a community that is bigger than them, when they are provided with the facts and asked to make a balanced judgement in the interest of the community as a whole, and when they educated sufficiently to understand what it is they are being asked to express judgement on and its implications. However, what we have is a system where the rich/powerful or corporate entities exercise far greater influence in setting the agenda and scope for the debate, everyone else is told from day one that they are on their own with only a few friends (and surrounded by "others" who are out to get them and their possessions), we are bombarded day and night with adverts/propaganda which we do not even have the right to opt out of (they have the right to advertise to us but we don't have the right to not be advertised at) and the vast majority of people are not educated enough to be aware of what they are being asked to express judgement on and instead are bombarded with endless (mindless?) sound-bites and buzzwords whilst the tacit message is being allowed to propagate that it is all boring and besides "there's nothing I can do; they don't listen to me". Against that backdrop, it's no surprise that we end up in this kind of crazy mess. What makes it all more crazy is that it is actually entirely of our own volition - there is no law of physics that says it has to be this way; it is this way because we have decided, consciously or unconsciously, that we will accept it being this way.

  10. #4890
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    Quote Originally Posted by jturner View Post
    I think failed implementation would be a better description. Democracy as a concept works best when everyone's vote and influence is equal, when they're bound by a sense of belonging to a community that is bigger than them, when they are provided with the facts and asked to make a balanced judgement in the interest of the community as a whole, and when they educated sufficiently to understand what it is they are being asked to express judgement on and its implications. However, what we have is a system where the rich/powerful or corporate entities exercise far greater influence in setting the agenda and scope for the debate, everyone else is told from day one that they are on their own with only a few friends (and surrounded by "others" who are out to get them and their possessions), we are bombarded day and night with adverts/propaganda which we do not even have the right to opt out of (they have the right to advertise to us but we don't have the right to not be advertised at) and the vast majority of people are not educated enough to be aware of what they are being asked to express judgement on and instead are bombarded with endless (mindless?) sound-bites and buzzwords whilst the tacit message is being allowed to propagate that it is all boring and besides "there's nothing I can do; they don't listen to me". Against that backdrop, it's no surprise that we end up in this kind of crazy mess. What makes it all more crazy is that it is actually entirely of our own volition - there is no law of physics that says it has to be this way; it is this way because we have decided, consciously or unconsciously, that we will accept it being this way.
    Take your first few words and match it with your last few - its what I said People are more concerned about who got through in strictly or some voting scandal therein, not something that could directly impact them.

    I do agree that everybody's vote should be equal - but in reality is my opinion equally worthy as a PhD in Marine Biology than someone with a PhD in economics?


 

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