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  1. #5171
    Remember, remember Adrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GaleForceEight View Post
    Interestingly i agree with much of what you are saying here.

    A customs union where goods meet national/eu requirements and freedom of movement was always my preferred option and a realistic way of moving forward so that the NI border could remain open etc etc. It is the POLITICAL and legal integration and imposition that I didnt like.

    Let me give you a real world example.

    As an aircraft engineer by trade, when I studied for my engineering licences there was a safeguard under the old British system, where after you had passed your exams you had an oral board with an experienced engineer who would weed out people who were good at passing exams from people who were actually competent and knew what they were doing. When EASA integrated engineering licences this extra safeguard was removed to comply with EU regulations and we were getting engineers coming through who needed to be babysat because although they were technically qualified they lacked the experience that the British system ensured.
    The conversion to the European system was also handled very differently by different nations. In France for example, engineering licenses were handed out like sweeties to mechanics, whereas experienced engineers in the UK had to jump through extra hoops just to maintain the privileges they had earned through years of study, work, and experience.
    What do you mean by 'engineering licences'? I've never been aware of such. Is it a licence particular to aeronautics? I ask as 'engineer' is not a legally protected term and I've never heard of licensed engineers in the UK.
    Mah Nŗ Mah Nŗ

  2. #5172
    Confused? You will be. Jay_Benson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by graham_hk View Post
    I will never unite with the racist gammon contingent ... I am not a big fan of the stupid either ... how many leavers does that leave to hang with?
    Still quite a large number actually. Probably 50% of them. When you have a range of media distorting reality for many years then people start to believe it. Some relatives read the Torygraph as it is generally well written but they adopted a very anti-EU stance some years ago but gradually. They fell for the distortions completely and are bought into the idea of Brexit. They arenít stupid or racist but misinformed and due to lack of exposure to other information sources they are stuck in an echo chamber.
    For information to help you plan your dive trip in the UK and Eire try www.planyourdivetrip.co.uk

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  3. #5173
    Confused? You will be. Jay_Benson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GaleForceEight View Post
    Let me give you a real world example.

    As an aircraft engineer by trade, when I studied for my engineering licences there was a safeguard under the old British system, where after you had passed your exams you had an oral board with an experienced engineer who would weed out people who were good at passing exams from people who were actually competent and knew what they were doing. When EASA integrated engineering licences this extra safeguard was removed to comply with EU regulations and we were getting engineers coming through who needed to be babysat because although they were technically qualified they lacked the experience that the British system ensured.
    The conversion to the European system was also handled very differently by different nations. In France for example, engineering licenses were handed out like sweeties to mechanics, whereas experienced engineers in the UK had to jump through extra hoops just to maintain the privileges they had earned through years of study, work, and experience.

    An analogy you might understand is that if you imagine people who had taken their CBT all being given full A entitlements by default in order to integrate into a euro standard bike license. Would you consider them to be safe to jump onto a full power machine? Some may be, but they would be the exception.
    Whilst inaccurate as there is not set EU system, I get your drift.

    Quote Originally Posted by GaleForceEight View Post

    Now consider giving a mechanic the ability to sign off the aircraft you are flying off on holiday in as fit to fly, on the strength that he has been changing wheel and brake packs and topping up oil in the engines fir a few years. Still feel safe for the aircraft to be fit to fly on his nod? Okay so it is a bit more complex than that, but that is the gist of what happened.
    The thing is the UK Engineering Council does have a licensing system for the award of Tech Eng, Incorporated and Chartered Engineers. These are protected titles and so cannot be used by people on a whim. These positions are subject to review by fellow professionals and the Incorporated and Chartered Engineers are subject to a very formal peer review and then interview - Tech Eng tend not to have the interview part except by exception. As a reviewer I can assure you that we go to great lengths to ensure that the standards are maintained.

    There is nothing in EU rules that stops member countries using a higher bar than the EU standard - look at the way that the UK government gold plated EU standards to confirm that. That is not the fault of the EU but the British government. What the EU would not allow is the UK government stopping flights from other countries within the EU, that met EU standards, purely because they engineers had not had an interview. The reality is that it seems to work - there arenít too many cases of EU planes falling apart due to inadequate maintenance as far as I an aware.
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  4. #5174
    TDF Member GaleForceEight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian View Post
    What do you mean by 'engineering licences'? I've never been aware of such. Is it a licence particular to aeronautics? I ask as 'engineer' is not a legally protected term and I've never heard of licensed engineers in the UK.
    Indeed, it is specific to the aviation industry. Once you had studied the engineering and passed the technical exams, and the oral board you qualified for a License Without Type Rating. This allows you to sign off absolutely nothing as fit to fly. You then have to gain experience on individual aircraft types as well as pass a technical course on that specific aircraft type before you are permitted to certify work carried out on that aircraft (hence the term Type Rating). People qualified are known as Certifying Engineers. It is also broken down further between airframe, engine, and avionics.

    It is not quite the same as what Jay is involved with.
    Last edited by GaleForceEight; 03-02-2020 at 01:27 AM.

  5. #5175
    Remember, remember Adrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GaleForceEight View Post
    Indeed, it is specific to the aviation industry. Once you had studied the engineering and passed the technical exams, and the oral board you qualified for a License Without Type Rating. This allows you to sign off absolutely nothing as fit to fly. You then have to gain experience on individual aircraft types as well as pass a technical course on that specific aircraft type before you are permitted to certify work carried out on that aircraft (hence the term Type Rating). People qualified are known as Certifying Engineers. It is also broken down further between airframe, engine, and avionics.

    It is not quite the same as what Jay is involved with.
    Thank you. I was aware of the engineering council grades, but not your industry specific regulation.

  6. #5176
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay_Benson View Post
    Still quite a large number actually. Probably 50% of them. When you have a range of media distorting reality for many years then people start to believe it. Some relatives read the Torygraph as it is generally well written but they adopted a very anti-EU stance some years ago but gradually. They fell for the distortions completely and are bought into the idea of Brexit. They aren’t stupid or racist but misinformed and due to lack of exposure to other information sources they are stuck in an echo chamber.
    This is a fair point and of course not just the Telegraph. The Mail, the Sun, the Star and so on are all pretty much part of the bullshit mill. The Telegraph used to be a decent (if biased) paper many years ago but it is now just a broadsheet version of the Mail. The broadcast media have also been pretty poor on the subject (as with climate change). In addition the general media have whipped up a frenzy about immigration (the Express has become nearly a BNP newsletter) which has also distorted that subject to the point where sensible discussion is impossible.

    In the US the same debate could be had about the role of the Federal Government. Lots of people who get a handout will tell you the Federal government is the "enemy" and firmly believe they pay into it when the opposite is true. Half the gun nuts are tooled up to protect themselves from the government.

    This is better described as ignorance than stupidity, but it also requires a certain mindset to cling to the lies when presented with the truth. Unfortunately there are some very big vested interests in promoting a viewpoint based on ignorance. Humans will follow the herd rather than make the effort to find out the facts for themselves. The invention of the Internet now means we don't even accept the facts any more - there are so many (to quote Kellyanne Conway) "alternative" facts now.

  7. #5177
    Established TDF Member jamesp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GaleForceEight View Post
    Interestingly i agree with much of what you are saying here.

    A customs union where goods meet national/eu requirements and freedom of movement was always my preferred option and a realistic way of moving forward so that the NI border could remain open etc etc. It is the POLITICAL and legal integration and imposition that I didnt like.

    Let me give you a real world example.

    As an aircraft engineer by trade, when I studied for my engineering licences there was a safeguard under the old British system, where after you had passed your exams you had an oral board with an experienced engineer who would weed out people who were good at passing exams from people who were actually competent and knew what they were doing. When EASA integrated engineering licences this extra safeguard was removed to comply with EU regulations and we were getting engineers coming through who needed to be babysat because although they were technically qualified they lacked the experience that the British system ensured.
    The conversion to the European system was also handled very differently by different nations. In France for example, engineering licenses were handed out like sweeties to mechanics, whereas experienced engineers in the UK had to jump through extra hoops just to maintain the privileges they had earned through years of study, work, and experience.

    An analogy you might understand is that if you imagine people who had taken their CBT all being given full A entitlements by default in order to integrate into a euro standard bike license. Would you consider them to be safe to jump onto a full power machine? Some may be, but they would be the exception.

    Now consider giving a mechanic the ability to sign off the aircraft you are flying off on holiday in as fit to fly, on the strength that he has been changing wheel and brake packs and topping up oil in the engines fir a few years. Still feel safe for the aircraft to be fit to fly on his nod? Okay sonit is a bit more complex than that, but that is the gist of what happened.

    It isnít about racism, as the propaganda stupid people believe portrays. Yes some Leavers are racist, the same as Barry here has proven that some remainers are just as racist or even more so than the people they are trying to tar with that epithet. Racism has no place in our society yet SOME stupid people continue to brand all leavers as racist because they lack the intellect or imagination to consider otherwise.

    I dont have time to write more just now but I may come back to add more comment later, but I would encourage you to at least try to understand what I am saying here.
    There we go, a Brexiteer giving "the problem with EU regs" speech, and admitting that it was gold plating of the regs by the UK authorities that was the problem.

    Wether the UK was right, wrong or just f stupid, the regs were what everyone else worked to: The UK needed to add a cherry on top and make life difficult for the UK.

    Self inflicted problem.

  8. #5178
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesp View Post
    ... "the problem with EU regs" ....
    Whilst there are some problems mostly it seems that the core issue is people (even educated engineers) don't know what the EU is or what it does and therefore confuse what they believe to be EU based regulations with regulatory issues that have nothing to do with the EU.

    This is the problem with the media and the government using the EU as a scapegoat for every bad idea that ever happened, an idea that then passes into popular myth and so it goes round and round. Add to this a systematic dishonesty by scum like Alexander Johnson making up stories to sell newspapers and it's not hard to see how everything is somehow an "EU regulation" imposed on us by the "undemocratic" EU. Once that idea is firmly planted in people's minds it becomes the "truth" and anyone that says otherwise is the remoaner metropolitan elite or some such thing.

  9. #5179
    I used to be Cheeky UnCheeky Monkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    the core issue is people (even educated engineers) don't know what the EU is or what it does
    in fairness, as a remainer educated professional, I don't know either, but plumped for remain

    it will always be a travesty that we all voted (or didn't) - either way - based on so little actual useful information about actual relevant facts from both sides IMO

  10. #5180
    Confused? You will be. Jay_Benson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnCheeky Monkey View Post
    in fairness, as a remainer educated professional, I don't know either, but plumped for remain

    it will always be a travesty that we all voted (or didn't) - either way - based on so little actual useful information about actual relevant facts from both sides IMO
    As you say, both sides were guilty of a lack of useful relevant facts. The trouble for Remain was that the Leave campaign started 10 years before with the Express, Sun, Mail etc drip feeding for that period. One thing that did not help the Remain campaign was that the EU which funded huge amounts of redevelopment in the regions that voted to leave but there was no fanfare to say "This was funded by the EU" - as happens on the continent.

    Anyway I spent Friday evening in Derby with the launch of the Rejoin campaign that is starting up. A surprising number of people were there and I was pleasantly surprised by the number of car drivers that hooted in support as they went by and the support that was shouted by many drivers. On the flip side as it was at 11pm there was also some verbal abuse from drunken people fresh out of Wetherspoons.
    For information to help you plan your dive trip in the UK and Eire try www.planyourdivetrip.co.uk

    Public transport planning info at www.traveline.info


 

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