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  1. #5161
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelemonkey View Post
    Just as I thought. The decision has been made, we have left the union, and yet the "discussions" are still going on. And will go on Ad Nuseam.
    Some thing goes well "It is because we left the union." Something goes wrong "It is because we left the union."
    Give it a rest people.
    Since the general election, there's been a lot of rhetoric like this being thrown around: 'now is the time for reconciliation' etc. That's madness. We've just experienced the absolute victory of misinformation-fuelled identity politics over informed rationality. Over the next 12 months, we'll be watching all the impossible promises falling apart, as 'Britannia' realises she's going to have to put out if the rest of the world are to throw her a trade deal here or there. In 12 months time, we'll be paying the price for an act of economic vandalism. The truth that everyone is beginning to realise is that nothing changed today: nobody in this country is noticing any increase in their freedom because the entire notion of 'getting our country back' was infantile jingoism which meant absolutely nothing. Our lives from today onward will be exactly the same, only in 12 months time we'll all be poorer.

    It's absolutely vital that we don't allow the Brexiteers to disappear into the woodwork or try to off-load responsibility for this disaster onto someone else. As with flat-earthers, there'll be no persuading the Brexiteers themselves, but the bystanders to this mess - the undecided and the future generations - must be made to understand what has just happened. The positive we could take away from this disaster isn't 'reconciliation' but a seismic shift in UK politics. If this happens, we could improve the UK - by legislating against the media moguls, social media manipulators and financial elites who've profiteered from the disaster which is about to happen.

  2. #5162
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlymouthD View Post
    The truth that everyone is beginning to realise is that nothing changed today: nobody in this country is noticing any increase in their freedom because the entire notion of 'getting our country back' was infantile jingoism which meant absolutely nothing. Our lives from today onward will be exactly the same, only in 12 months time we'll all be poorer.
    The fine people who put up this jovial note seem to think a lot has changed:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-51341735

    Personally I've moved from a job where I trade all over the world and bring hundreds of millions in to the country to one where (whilst trying not to give too many details) the main outcome of what I do is the week and poor are preyed on for the further enrichment of the already wealthy.

  3. #5163
    I used to be Cheeky UnCheeky Monkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManualOverride View Post
    The fine people who put up this jovial note seem to think a lot has changed:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-51341735
    Retards

    Or should that be "Retard's"

  4. #5164
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManualOverride View Post
    Personally I've moved from a job where I trade all over the world and bring hundreds of millions in to the country to one where (whilst trying not to give too many details) the main outcome of what I do is the week and poor are preyed on for the further enrichment of the already wealthy.
    you do have a choice though - if more people made a choice that this kind of work was unacceptable it would make it difficult for the week(sic) and poor to be preyed upon ...

  5. #5165
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlymouthD View Post
    ... The truth that everyone is beginning to realise is that nothing changed today: ...
    This always was the problem with the Withdrawal Agreement. By giving a transition period the change (such as it is) would taper in over time. I think this is a large part of why the ERG and their friends wanted to constantly vote down the Robbins drafted agreement and push hard into a crash out. A crash would have provided many opportunities to change things in a short timeframe. Now we must consider a number of scenarios that pertain to where we are now and see if this hypothesis still has any value.

    Firstly there still is the possibility of a crash out. If no trade agreement is reached by the middle of the year the UK will crash out on 31.12.20 By that time we can assume that enough will be in place to prevent the most absurd parts of leaving to still be there - some sort of agreement will have been made regarding aviation for example so flights will still go back and forth. It will be a crash out but without the squeal of splitting metal and breaking glass but a crash out all the same. This can be sold to the public as a "deal". I think this is the most likely right now, but there are many possibilities between now and then.

    The alternative is that we agree some sort of negotiated trade deal which is comprehensive and actually covers the movement of goods into and out of the EU from the UK and which also preserves the services market in some way. This implies a customs union and possibly even some limited free movement of people or at least preferential treatment for EU/UK migration. Starmer is already calling for full FoM and is the most likely replacement for magic grandpa, so this scenario is not totally outlandish.

    Now from my perspective both of these will continue to see the wishes of the people divided into two rather polarised positions. The racist element that want foreigners out at any cost will not be happy if there is still some rights for EU citizens to come here. Business will be gutted if we do actually crash out with all that that implies. The wider public will have one or the other priority, achieving both is not possible.

    If you are one of the many idiots now wanting the UK to unify and all become friends with one another in some lovey-dovey nirvana of Union Jack waving joy I am afraid you are going to be sorely disappointed.

  6. #5166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    If you are one of the many idiots now wanting the UK to unify and all become friends with one another in some lovey-dovey nirvana of Union Jack waving joy I am afraid you are going to be sorely disappointed.
    I will never unite with the racist gammon contingent ... I am not a big fan of the stupid either ... how many leavers does that leave to hang with?

  7. #5167
    TDF Member GaleForceEight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    This always was the problem with the Withdrawal Agreement. By giving a transition period the change (such as it is) would taper in over time. I think this is a large part of why the ERG and their friends wanted to constantly vote down the Robbins drafted agreement and push hard into a crash out. A crash would have provided many opportunities to change things in a short timeframe. Now we must consider a number of scenarios that pertain to where we are now and see if this hypothesis still has any value.

    Firstly there still is the possibility of a crash out. If no trade agreement is reached by the middle of the year the UK will crash out on 31.12.20 By that time we can assume that enough will be in place to prevent the most absurd parts of leaving to still be there - some sort of agreement will have been made regarding aviation for example so flights will still go back and forth. It will be a crash out but without the squeal of splitting metal and breaking glass but a crash out all the same. This can be sold to the public as a "deal". I think this is the most likely right now, but there are many possibilities between now and then.

    The alternative is that we agree some sort of negotiated trade deal which is comprehensive and actually covers the movement of goods into and out of the EU from the UK and which also preserves the services market in some way. This implies a customs union and possibly even some limited free movement of people or at least preferential treatment for EU/UK migration. Starmer is already calling for full FoM and is the most likely replacement for magic grandpa, so this scenario is not totally outlandish.

    Now from my perspective both of these will continue to see the wishes of the people divided into two rather polarised positions. The racist element that want foreigners out at any cost will not be happy if there is still some rights for EU citizens to come here. Business will be gutted if we do actually crash out with all that that implies. The wider public will have one or the other priority, achieving both is not possible.

    If you are one of the many idiots now wanting the UK to unify and all become friends with one another in some lovey-dovey nirvana of Union Jack waving joy I am afraid you are going to be sorely disappointed.
    Interestingly i agree with much of what you are saying here.

    A customs union where goods meet national/eu requirements and freedom of movement was always my preferred option and a realistic way of moving forward so that the NI border could remain open etc etc. It is the POLITICAL and legal integration and imposition that I didnt like.

    Let me give you a real world example.

    As an aircraft engineer by trade, when I studied for my engineering licences there was a safeguard under the old British system, where after you had passed your exams you had an oral board with an experienced engineer who would weed out people who were good at passing exams from people who were actually competent and knew what they were doing. When EASA integrated engineering licences this extra safeguard was removed to comply with EU regulations and we were getting engineers coming through who needed to be babysat because although they were technically qualified they lacked the experience that the British system ensured.
    The conversion to the European system was also handled very differently by different nations. In France for example, engineering licenses were handed out like sweeties to mechanics, whereas experienced engineers in the UK had to jump through extra hoops just to maintain the privileges they had earned through years of study, work, and experience.

    An analogy you might understand is that if you imagine people who had taken their CBT all being given full A entitlements by default in order to integrate into a euro standard bike license. Would you consider them to be safe to jump onto a full power machine? Some may be, but they would be the exception.

    Now consider giving a mechanic the ability to sign off the aircraft you are flying off on holiday in as fit to fly, on the strength that he has been changing wheel and brake packs and topping up oil in the engines fir a few years. Still feel safe for the aircraft to be fit to fly on his nod? Okay sonit is a bit more complex than that, but that is the gist of what happened.

    It isn’t about racism, as the propaganda stupid people believe portrays. Yes some Leavers are racist, the same as Barry here has proven that some remainers are just as racist or even more so than the people they are trying to tar with that epithet. Racism has no place in our society yet SOME stupid people continue to brand all leavers as racist because they lack the intellect or imagination to consider otherwise.

    I dont have time to write more just now but I may come back to add more comment later, but I would encourage you to at least try to understand what I am saying here.
    Last edited by GaleForceEight; 02-02-2020 at 12:17 PM.

  8. #5168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    Starmer is already calling for full FoM and is the most likely replacement for magic grandpa, so this scenario is not totally outlandish.
    Isn't he from that small, largely irrelevant, "labour" party? The same party that's not listening to anyone except their own extremist supporters? The one which took votes for granted? The one that's probably lost more from Scotland than any other party (50+ seats)? The one where forming a government is a wild fantasy? Oh, and the party that just doesn't seem to be interested in being in power -- vis that survey putting Corbyn first (their biggest looser) and Blair last (their biggest winner)?

    In any case it's nothing but a sideshow as the Conservatives have such a commanding majority that little or nothing will bring an election before 2024, giving them 4+ years to sort out the European trade negotiations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    If you are one of the many idiots now wanting the UK to unify and all become friends with one another in some lovey-dovey nirvana of Union Jack waving joy I am afraid you are going to be sorely disappointed.
    As in people who actually have pride in their country and who don't want it subsumed into obscurity by the benevolent European project -- which the country should have heeded De Gaulle's original and highly accurate rejection of the UK's membership application. (If ever there was an absolute proof of "treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen" -- with Heath's entrance negotiations)

    Or to quote someone else: The European Parliament to be the democratic body; the European Commission to be the executive; the Council of Ministers to be the senate. That was finally rejected by the UK on Friday 31st Jan 2020.

    This is one of those rare examples where democracy has spoken. Unlike in Europe where the French, Dutch and Irish referendums (on closer European integration) were simply ignored.

    Farage, whilst being a massive populist prick, is correct about the punchline of his pathetic dig at Herman Van Rompuy: he wasn't allowed to have a go at the president of the European Council because he's wasn't elected.

  9. #5169
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    GaleForceEight has given 'legal and political integration' as his motivation for voting leave but then cited a narrow technical issue as an example. The content/format of a specific Industry's competence-certification procedure is anything but political and will continue not to be now we're out of Europe. There will not be a single vote lost or gained over this matter and no political party has had/does have/will have a view on it. It is a perfect example of the sort of technical, nuts-and-bolts national administration which will always, rightly, be left in the hands of unelected officials.

    Wibs has referred to the nationalistic argument - pride in country and refusing to kowtow to an imperfectly-democratic Europe.

    We've all got strong views on this, but the heat has now gone out of the argument because we're all now spectators. As we progress through the year, both these arguments will be tested by events. The question we'll see answered is whether dismantling the UK's most important trading relationship was justified by (1) our new-found ability to make technical changes to policy areas on which almost nobody has ever had an opinion and (2) the surge in national pride, independence and international respect which we'll all be feeling after a year spent desperately seeking deals with any kindly nation who can help cushion the economic hammer-blow.

  10. #5170
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlymouthD View Post
    ....
    We've all got strong views on this, but the heat has now gone out of the argument because we're all now spectators. As we progress through the year, both these arguments will be tested by events. The question we'll see answered is whether dismantling the UK's most important trading relationship was justified by (1) our new-found ability to make technical changes to policy areas on which almost nobody has ever had an opinion and (2) the surge in national pride, independence and international respect which we'll all be feeling after a year spent desperately seeking deals with any kindly nation who can help cushion the economic hammer-blow.
    I think a bit part of the problem is that the strong views often appear to me to be based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what the EU is and how it affects us all. I get the professional qualifications thing and I am sure there are many examples where the trade bodies and associations have failed to get a sensible result for whatever reason, but this is nothing to do with the political integration of the EU member states, just a screw up by some trade body or another. A similar thing can be seen in the diversity of what is CMAS 1 star diver is.

    Since, as you rightly say, virtually no one has a view on these minutiae the mass desire to leave most certainly is not based on that even if for some people it is an issue (which I accept fully).

    The flag waving thing is identity politics. Persuade people that the EU (about which they know nothing) is turning them into something they don't want to be and you have instant animosity. It (EU) is "undemocratic" (bollocks) or "making our laws" (bollocks) or some other twaddle and it's very easy to see why people don't like it. The idiotic idea of English exceptionalism that some of our society are convinced of also plays well to the idea we are being turned into something lesser, smaller, more unimportant, even though this is also bollocks and demonstrably untrue for just a tiny weeny bit of research.

    In short every thing I have ever heard or read that supports the UK leaving the EU is either total bollocks or simply the idea (also bollocks) that somehow it will reduce immigration. I do understand why people have an issue with immigration, but again most of the arguments against that are bollocks or based around identity politics or English exceptionalism.

    Leave won because it is easier to believe a lie that fits your prejudices than accept the truth and challenge your own point of view. Every single person in the UK knows that Johnson is a worthless lying sack of shit without a shred of decency or morality in his body, yet lifelong Labour voters put him back into power just to leave the EU knowing that another five years of being shit on was the inevitable result. Against the willingness to inflict such self harm to achieve a imaginary victory there really was not the slightest possibility of common sense prevailing. The election results were enough that whatever your views on the subject the disaster upon which we are embarked has a large body of people behind it no matter how wrong they may be.

    As jobs are lost and the stupidity of the decision becomes more evident there will be no reconciliation, no "coming together" just a very long and tiresome argument of throwing stones at the other side. The pretend outrage, the invented offence of the winners will never stop, their self pitying pathos is part of that moronic identity they fought so hard to retain. For those of us who feel this decision is a foolish thing it will be hard ever to stop pointing that out - even if the implication the other side were fools brings on the whining and moaning, bitching and griping and general childishness that we have already endured for the last 40 years.

    Sorry. That's just how it is. Not sure I like it, but that is how it is nevertheless.


 

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