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  1. #101
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    In 1961, I did a school trip where a couple of teachers took us on a walking trip in the Lake District. One day we walked the whole Scafell Horseshoe. Kids need to be challenged as safely as possible because if not how will they learn to assess risk?

    I did a cave rescue job fifty years ago this month when flash floods caused a problem similar to the on in Thailand and three cavers got trapped. These guys were expert cavers and used to going through short flooded sumps but were not trained divers. Unfortunately it was the weekend of the Cave Diving Conference in Sheffield and all the local cave divers were away. Our club did the Police diving work (before the Police had heir own facilities and pre-HSE!) so were asked if we could help. One of our members was also an experienced caver and knew the cave well and it had pre-laid ropes. The passages were fairly wide as well. However, I have never been so scared in all my life - following a line by feel in zero viz and it was nowhere near as long a traverse as in Thailand. It was my one and only serious cave dive. Since then I've restricted my cave diving activities to large sea caves like Chandelier Caves in Palau. I'm afraid cave diving holds no attraction for me.

    I really take my hat off to these guys and wish them the very best of luck. Hope the monsoon rains hold off until they get them out.

  2. #102
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Carr View Post
    ... following a line by feel in zero viz ...
    Yup. There is a huge difference between sump diving and cave diving. These flooded sumps are zero vis mud and often have a squeeze in them too. Cave diving is near perfect vis and big passages (well what I do is). Big respect to everyone involved. I think the more you know about it the more scary it is. (Which might help the kids if they don't have that knowledge).

    So far so good and let's hope for all the rest to come out safely too.

  3. #103
    Established TDF Member MikeF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Clark View Post
    Why do they need to blame anyone?

    The coach sounds like he was enriching the kids lives and kept 12 of them alive for 10 days in a situation that must have seemed pretty hopeless.

    In the UK, we have got to a situation where teachers cannot even take kids out into the hills, let alone caving. Some people obviously think this is a good thing or it wouldn't be happening! It boils my p1ss. Exactly as someone said above, with this approach kids don't become adults until they are 30+. If a group of 14 year old kids can't go out in the outdoors with some basic adult supervision, what exactly is going to prepare them for going to Vietnam on a GAP year in 4 years time? A youtube video?

    I have a situation right now where we are moving area & schools for our kids. My daughter (aged 10) is booked on an outdoor education trip with her old school in the next academic year. She was quite anxious about going away for a week, sleeping in a bunkhouse and not seeing mum or dad for a while. She psyched herself up for it and decided to go. We asked the headteachers of both her old and new schools if she could still go. Both were fully in support. Some office jockey at the LEA has decided she can't. 'Not in accordance with policy' and 'insurance issues'.

    I left school about 20 years ago. We were allowed to walk to/from the swimming baths by ourselves at 11. A single (brilliant) male teacher with an ML qualification took a dozen of us up Helvellyn. The school climbing club let 16 year old kids lead climb multipitch rock climbs in the Lake District, and abseil off, supervised from the ground. We shot 22 rifles on the school range. We shot live 556 GP rifles on the local army range. We shot live LSW's on full-auto on annual camp.

    None of the above would be even considered now.

    A loss in my opinion.
    couldn't agree more. As a kid I walked or biked to school from the age of 6, went hill walking with the school, and skiing, and sailing from about 11 or 12. I got an air rifle at 11 and my first shotgun at the age of 14, fired my first .270 in the hills at 14 and joined the local diving club at 17 and was DO at the age of 25.

    Jesus I look at young people in their 20's now who simply cannot comprehend taking responsibility for their own actions let alone others. I met some uni club guys with lots of dives under their belts bemoaning the fact they couldn't dive the shuna or hispania on a club trip as they were too deep and they'd be in trouble if the uni found out.

    How will they find out I asked? Well we have to submit our dive logs to the uni was the answer. My suggestion that they just do the dives and then submit some logs to the jobsworths that said 25m or less was met with incredulous looks. I just gave up and left them to it.

  4. #104
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    Schools in my day (80's) at least tried to push you (even slightly) beyond your boundaries with things such as Outdoor education where you would go canoeing, orienteering etc.

    Now it appears, certainly from the outside, that schools are simply interested in getting as many pupils to hit academic targets instead of actually turning out well developed individuals.

  5. #105
    Stating facts ; ) Ruffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cazyoung View Post
    It was the British cave divers that found them

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44690688
    Not surprised, these guys are some of the best on the planet

    Any GUE guys helping?
    Bacon is good for you!.....................................

  6. #106
    Established TDF Member turnerjd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Clark View Post
    I left school about 20 years ago. We were allowed to walk to/from the swimming baths by ourselves at 11. A single (brilliant) male teacher with an ML qualification took a dozen of us up Helvellyn. The school climbing club let 16 year old kids lead climb multipitch rock climbs in the Lake District, and abseil off, supervised from the ground. We shot 22 rifles on the school range. We shot live 556 GP rifles on the local army range. We shot live LSW's on full-auto on annual camp.
    I'd forgotten about such fun things. My school was opposite a small Territorial Army Barracks (Chetwynd Barracks, the one in Prenton, Birkenhead, not Chilwell). Wednesday afternoons with the CCF. Shooting .22 rifles on the ranges opposite. AEF flights, with aerobatics. Full day Saturday at RAF Sealand with the VGS (lolling about in the sun, occasionally holding a wing tip level and running like hell for the first 20m as the winch pulled, before the wings found lift - for a flight or two in a glider at the end of the day). We had a DofE Section as well. They even did the Ten Tors once.

    I am actually starting to pity my daughter now.....

  7. #107
    Established TDF Member turnerjd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruffy View Post
    Not surprised, these guys are some of the best on the planet

    Any GUE guys helping?
    they're all off somewhere at 6m, checking their identical equipment configuration, calculating their ratio-deco for the dive and checking their buoyancy-god status.......


  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    Yup. There is a huge difference between sump diving and cave diving. These flooded sumps are zero vis mud and often have a squeeze in them too. Cave diving is near perfect vis and big passages (well what I do is). Big respect to everyone involved. I think the more you know about it the more scary it is. (Which might help the kids if they don't have that knowledge).

    So far so good and let's hope for all the rest to come out safely too.
    Semantics mate.
    The Cave Diving Group are primarily about doing what you call sump diving and have since 1946.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruffy View Post
    Not surprised, these guys are some of the best on the planet

    Any GUE guys helping?
    You've got to be taking the piss, there's some actual caving to do before getting to the water. They can't just reverse their chevy pickup to the waters edge, put their twin 20's ("cave filled" to 160 bar) on and fall in.

  10. #110
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WFO View Post
    Semantics mate.
    The Cave Diving Group are primarily about doing what you call sump diving and have since 1946.
    Agreed - UK caves are primarily sumps. Perhaps we should call cave diving "Floridian"? The difference matters for this particular incident though - I fear someone like me would be no use at all for these lads unless they need someone to make the tea.


 
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