BSAC Course Costs

[Wibs]

A small missive on free...

There's an old adage that everything has a value; give it away and it ceases to have that value.

How many times have you seen "free stuff" and taken it even though you don't need nor want it. You took it because it's free. It's a deeply engrained psychological response that you go for the easy stuff 'just in case' you might need it later. Marketeer (scumbags) know this and use it to entice us into buying some product or other, typically by doing BOGOF offers and suchlike.

Now think of the number of times you've bought that product at full price.... Not that often unless you would have bought it anyway or you're now addicted -- 'cos it was your smack dealer who gave you some free stuff from his stash to hook you.

Now the case in hand. The concept of getting a mass of people in to try diving for free/low cost with the hope that some will continue is quite random and not necessarily going to succeed, largely because it's got little value to them: "I'll give it a go", "I didn't like the cold", "I haven't got the time", "There's so much to learn", "It's hard", "I can't equalise".... I'm sure those would be common comments if you surveyed the dropouts.

Now to get real. Diving is not cheap. Sure @Tel can kit out a student for £500, but that's unusual. On top of the cost of the kit** (~£3k?) there's the cost of the training courses (~£1000? - need 4 in the UK -- OW, AOW, Nitrox, Drysuit) and the actual diving (~£100?/day - boat, gas, travel). Compare that with holiday diving where the 'holiday' component is a sunk cost and you get a lead dive for ~£100/day including all kit.

Now compare a novice's view of diving in the UK (mucky, cold, low vis, dark, weatherbound, tidal, waves, danger, lots of skills) compared with diving abroad (warm, clear, easy, pretty fish, sunshine).


I ask the question as to *why* anyone would think that people would like to dive in the UK out of choice? OK, there's us hardened addicts smoking our crack pipes in some God-forsaken shit holes hoping that the vis will be over 3m for a change whilst we freeze our tits off (that'll be pretty much everywhere in the UK off-season). But why do we think that if we give novices a puff they'll take to it?


** That £3k kit price is pretty much the minimum for new(ish) regs, tin, computer, drysuit, bcd, fins, mask and other tat.

The reality of tec diving is probably closer to £20k for kit and £5k/year for diving

[Wibs]

And one on PADI bashing...

PADI does a great job of getting us diving and to a moderate standard. Learning with a PADI outfit abroad then diving in the UK without additional skills is bloody stupid. Most PADI training I've experienced in the UK is adapted to UK conditions, especially poor vis, darkness and lost buddy ascents. Learning in clear, warm water does not give you any of the challenges you'll encounter on a UK dive.

PADI have a rightful reputation of Pay Another Dollar In where they take your money and give you a certification card. Although, in my experience, that's not the case in the UK where the schools know that UK diving means a weak/dangerous student could well come a cropper if 'just passed' as I've seen abroad. Many UK schools will push a poor student back to re-do part of a course before certifying them.

BSAC isn't the panacea of training. I've seen plenty of shit BSAC divers kicking the crap out of the visibility and showing awful in-water skills.

Arguably PADI's "professional" approach should be better than BSAC's amateur approach? No, I don't believe that either as I've seen too many shit PADI divers and DiveMASTERs.

PADI and BSAC are both good at what they do. But both have issues too.

[Energy58]

Now to get real. Diving is not cheap. Sure @Tel can kit out a student for £500, but that's unusual. On top of the cost of the kit** (~£3k?) there's the cost of the training courses (~£1000? - need 4 in the UK -- OW, AOW, Nitrox, Drysuit) and the actual diving (~£100?/day - boat, gas, travel). Compare that with holiday diving where the 'holiday' component is a sunk cost and you get a lead dive for ~£100/day including all kit.

Now compare a novice's view of diving in the UK (mucky, cold, low vis, dark, weatherbound, tidal, waves, danger, lots of skills) compared with diving abroad (warm, clear, easy, pretty fish, sunshine).

100% agree but "holiday diving" is diving for 90+%; its very limiting but it is what it is. Training in the UK for newbies is expensive and pretty unrewarding (sludge central) and in reality only for the 1% - you probably have a better chance of converting folk who have done a fair bit of holiday diving and are probably AOW or something into UK divers via SD which begs the question - outside university and services clubs - why bother flogging yourself to recruit OD trainees who probably won't stick the course or if they do are unlikley to stay?

[dwhitlow]

100% agree but "holiday diving" is diving for 90+%; its very limiting but it is what it is. Training in the UK for newbies is expensive and pretty unrewarding (sludge central) and in reality only for the 1% - you probably have a better chance of converting folk who have done a fair bit of holiday diving and are probably AOW or something into UK divers via SD which begs the question - outside university and services clubs - why bother flogging yourself to recruit OD trainees who probably won't stick the course or if they do are unlikley to stay?

If it were all about getting the best return for the club then you are right and recruiting experienced divers into clubs is the best way.

However, some folk enjoy delivering initial training so Ocean Diver training gives them the rewards they want from the club. Every club needs a some like that to allow other instructors to focus on developing existing divers.

When I was instructing I preferred developing existing divers, rather than training new divers. However, I can't deny the face of a new diver after their first open water dive is a rewarding sight. I recall one dive in particular, in Littleton Pit, where I took a new diver in for his first open water dive. The water was green, and going dark at 6m, and any disturbance of the lake bed precipitated an impenetrable blackness. However, we navigated along the ropes and round the ring of wrecked cars and boat and returned to the exit, as planned. When we surfaced I was relieved to have brought us back without a surface swim whilst he had a wide grin and was thanking me for an amazing dive.

[Allan Carr]

Retention has been one of our big issues - especially with the crap weather over the past few years. My wife and I have done far less UK dives than we normally do as a result. Being a small club, members were getting fed up with subsidising people who simply wanted to learn to dive so that they could do it on holiday which is why we are pricing the training at a realistic cost. The club certainly won't make any money out of it but it will reduce the level of subsidy. Identifying a fixed charge based on average costs and spreading this over over a year after the trainee has paid all the BSAC costs up front has proved popular. It also gives us a framework to revise the charges as costs change, if BSAC puts up its charges or Stoney its entrance fees. THe QRB will not be formally signed off until all installments have been paid. On-going membership fees are then kept at a much lower level than they would be if we had to significantly subsidise training.

We have also got members to donate old suits which may be a bit leaky but can still be used for drysuit pool training and the better ones for open water initially. Although not in the DTP, we get trainees to practise skills with a hood and gloves on in the pool before we take them into open water.Also the first open water dive is simply an orientation dive - no skills tests or anything so that they can get used to just being in open water. Cutting the OD qualifying dives down to 4 I think is too much of rush.

One thing that has got us new members is promoting the club as family-friendly. Parents with teenage children are often at a bit of a loss as to activities that they can share with their kids and diving is one which can be interesting to both generations. It was certainly a help for me and my two sons when I was going through a divorce - it gave us something to bond over.

[Ian_6301]

To be fair, the insurance is probably as much use for diving and HQ provides a better service.

And you're covered if you accidentally shoot someone...

[Chrisch]

...
Now the case in hand. The concept of getting a mass of people in to try diving for free/low cost with the hope that some will continue is quite random and not necessarily going to succeed, largely because it's got little value to them: "I'll give it a go", "I didn't like the cold", "I haven't got the time", "There's so much to learn", "It's hard", "I can't equalise".... I'm sure those would be common comments if you surveyed the dropouts.....

I think there is some value in try dive. I do agree with your overall viewpoint (even if I am a scumbag marketing person..) but the try dive evening could be seen as a nice club activity and a chance to meet new people that might perhaps be interested. Maybe even do it as a charity thing? Just do not oversell the idea of doing OD as the way into diving, be honest about school training and be honest about what the club actually does. One way to maximise it is to....

...
One thing that has got us new members is promoting the club as family-friendly. Parents with teenage children are often at a bit of a loss as to activities that they can share with their kids and diving is one which can be interesting to both generations. It was certainly a help for me and my two sons when I was going through a divorce - it gave us something to bond over.

family try dive.

Yes - I think this is good strategy.

[Energy58]

If it were all about getting the best return for the club then you are right and recruiting experienced divers into clubs is the best way.

However, some folk enjoy delivering initial training so Ocean Diver training gives them the rewards they want from the club. Every club needs a some like that to allow other instructors to focus on developing existing divers.

When I was instructing I preferred developing existing divers, rather than training new divers. However, I can't deny the face of a new diver after their first open water dive is a rewarding sight. I recall one dive in particular, in Littleton Pit, where I took a new diver in for his first open water dive. The water was green, and going dark at 6m, and any disturbance of the lake bed precipitated an impenetrable blackness. However, we navigated along the ropes and round the ring of wrecked cars and boat and returned to the exit, as planned. When we surfaced I was relieved to have brought us back without a surface swim whilst he had a wide grin and was thanking me for an amazing dive.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to say "don't do it" but questioning the focus on "learn to dive with us" that comes out of HQ - it would be super interesting to know how long the average "BSAC-trained" OW diver stays a BSAC member compared to the average SSI/PADI/NAUI blow in (like me!) plus what the conversion rate from snorkle to Open Water is. My guess is that the blow-ins stay longer and the conversion rate from snorkle is tiny. If so we should be shouting out to PADI divers more and treating the "shop clubs" as a target rich environment!

[Chrisch]

.... If so we should be shouting out to PADI divers more and treating the "shop clubs" as a target rich environment!

I would love to see branches being more like shop clubs. We dive with Plymouth Dive Centre and they run a shop club: http://www.plymouthdivingcentre.co.uk/diving-club/

So for £75 for the two of us, - Reduced rate boat dives as low as £15 per dive midweeks and £20 at weekends

and the odd "free air" weekend...

To be totally honest 75 notes is not enough to really even think about it. Whereas 60 quid each BSAC fees and 150 quid each subs is too much. My BSAC club will probably give me free air all the time of course, free for £345 that is...

Oh and just to flesh things out here are some Portland shuttle prices for RIB diving:

http://divebeyond.co.uk/dive-site-price-list-2017/

[dwhitlow]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to say "don't do it" but questioning the focus on "learn to dive with us" that comes out of HQ

I think the motives of branch and HQ are different, and the message from HQ reflect this.
The branch wants members of their club to share club fixed costs (RIB, compressor, etc), to go diving with, to train, and be sociable. BSAC membership (and the legendary insurance) is secondary to them and the BSAC HQ tax is an overhead they tolerate (£100 branch vs. £60 BSAC).

BSAC HQ needs only to gather fees from memberships to cover their costs and seeks membership fees wherever they can, as illustrated by the creation of BSAC Direct, as a virtual branch, in direct competition to the real branches out there.

it would be super interesting to know how long the average "BSAC-trained" OW diver stays a BSAC member compared to the average SSI/PADI/NAUI blow in (like me!) plus what the conversion rate from snorkle to Open Water is. My guess is that the blow-ins stay longer and the conversion rate from snorkle is tiny. If so we should be shouting out to PADI divers more and treating the "shop clubs" as a target rich environment!

Hard metrics would be interesting. These will be something BSAC HQ has available, although I've not seen them shared anywhere. Outside uni branches, I suspect the average stay for new BSAC divers isn't that good as many fail to complete OD, or decide UK diving isn't for them and leave after the first year or two. Trained divers who join tend to stay much longer as they're already hooked and need like-minded people to support their habit so targeting the "shop clubs" is indeed a good plan which would be better of the BSAC HQ tax were lower.

[Ken]

Being a London club we gave up owning a rib year’s ago. So to go diving we need to book and largely fill boats. We pick up a few stray qualified divers but mostly we train new divers. To do that we need a regular pool and that is our biggest cost.

Getting rid of the pool and recruiting qualified divers hasn’t worked out for other local clubs. Once the pool stops they fade away.