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  1. #41
    Established TDF Member bottle maker's Avatar
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    A DO does not have to certify anybody is fit to dive. A DO has to have belief that a member is fit to dive. The best way is to inform the DO is a self certificate. If you can not certify yourself fit you need to see a medical refferee. if the medical refferee puts a restriction on the diving the DO needs to know what that restriction is. A DO does not need to know the reason only the restriction. If an individual diver wants to discuss his medical condition that is his choice.

    Graham

  2. #42
    Remember, remember Adrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bottle maker View Post
    If I was a DO and headquarters told me a member had filled in his self assessment and was fit to dive that would I would accept that. If headquarters told me the member had a restriction on his diving after a review by a specialist diving doctor I would accept that. . Me personally seeing a piece of paper that someone has filled and stated they are fit to dive does not make them fit or reduce the possiblity of a medical incidence. As I see it at the moment there is no way of a DO being aware of the medical status of a member with out duplicating the process. Hopefully the BSAC will modify the website and the process so that a DO or branch secretary is aware of the medical status of a diver. As a DO I would not need to know the reason for any restriction only that there is a restriction.

    Graham
    Absolutely. We have ensured the process has been followed and completed. If BSAC don't enable such functionality, perhaps they are taking on this element of the DO's responsibility as guided by the UKSDMC. I think more likely it's a screwup (not scoped or tested etc.).
    Mah N Mah N

  3. #43
    bottlefish Stuart Keasley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian View Post
    There is no mention on the form of the DO having to see the form (although the UKSDMC site says they should get it). A copy must be kept by the club.
    The BSAC rules do say that active members can't dive unless they have a completed a current Self-Declaration Medical Form. How does the DO know that it has been completed if the DO hasn't seen it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian View Post
    Divers steal from other divers. Diver lie to other divers. The form will only capture what the divers wishes to state, not necessarily the truth. The form (and thus the DO) cannot ensure fitness to dive, it can only ensure that a process has been followed. Some people prefer to do things right, some prefer to do the right thing. I prefer the latter, yet am often forced towards the former usually because someone has required a form to be completed. Sometimes the forms are useful if they make you think, sometimes they are merely CYA box ticking.
    The form takes reasonable steps. It's not fool proof, and yes people lie. I have, on more than one occasion, looked at a medical self declaration (when I was teaching diving), and the person, and said bollox, you're not coming in the water with me unless you've done a medical.

    Medical self declarations give you a base line to work from. It's up to you how far beyond that you go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian View Post
    As to what the courts decide, that depends. The one I went to court for, the DO (me at the time, but not a witness) was not even mentioned.
    Lucky you. And agreed, exactly what I was saying. The court will decide who's responsibility had influence, whether that responsibility was met.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian View Post
    I happen to take safety seriously,
    Glad to hear it

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian View Post
    but also realise that it is attitude and culture from people that make the big differences, not form filling.
    Safety starts with attitude and culture. And yep, if that attitude and culture looks upon form filling, RAs, medicals etc as pointless paper pushing, then yep, they'd be wasting their time.

    Personally, I look on RAs, medical questionnaires etc as useful tools to help me cover the various elements of safety that I need to consider, both as a check list of what I need to do and and audit trail of what I have done. It doesn't replace the correct attitude and culture, it's an integral part of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian View Post
    So a diver telling me before a dive that they have diabetes and how to deal with any possible issue is far more honest and useful to me and any other divers than a correctly filled in form that I've never seen. For similar reasons I'm quite happy to tell divers I've had DCI.
    Of course. Would you also ask them if they'd been to a Dr and been cleared for diving? Would mind if somebody asked you the same thing?
    Please visit bottlefish for my personal web site, Black Flag TV Ltd to hire me or our cameras.

  4. #44
    Does not play nicely with others drysuitdiver's Avatar
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    And again all going off on a tangent .


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Those who think they got away with things had better watch their backs
    .Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!


 
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