A diving apology.

[ray]

Look at this vid https://youtu.be/q9-jtHGtF6M .. would you risk this dive to look at rust, scrap and dead mans fingers dive to dive at 70 mtrs.. is this the only way that diving is progressing? , is this the holy grail that divers are thinking I must achieve?..

If so I am so sorry as a diver who was there at the beginning and would experience this kind of diving sub 30 meters, with all the tat on..

Is this why diving is failing on it's arse throughout all the diving geondras if i Could spell it! . Maybe I can't spell it but I could find portholes and bells at reasonable depths, and now you have to train your asrse off to go to the plug hole to get the same experience, or were you born too late?.. And if you came across the tat would you send it up, then you are just a present day me!..

ray.

[gobfish1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJx3vHUbfCQ&list=FLnh_eqEta8FacDVQ-hx0Qhg

look a 23min in

much better than the shit vid you posted ray , lol

id say most are in the born to late class, unless you fine something new ,
if its not new then it was striped clean by air divers back in the 60 70 and 80s or gas divers in the 90s
still some good diving to be had , if you take the time to look , id say

and if your hitting marks then some will be as in your vid , shite ,

[Hot Totty]

Not everything at depth revolves around pillaging stuff - just saying

[AndrewRawlingson]

Why risk your life for any of it? I wouldn't want a porthole or any other junk scavenged from the sea bed, but each to their own. I thought this was supposed to be a sport, or at the very least a pastime. We do it for fun don't we?

[Tewdric]

I've never found any artefacts on wrecks at rece atonal depths, no doubt because generations before have stolen it all so there's nothing left to see. It's a shame that that was just what everyone did back in the day, getting caught up in the culture and accepting it. It would be nice to think things had moved on, however there is at least one commercial dive boat in the south east whose adverts seem to focus on spidging opportunities.

[mark weaver]

You risk your life every time you go diving.

[jturner]

Why risk your life for any of it? I wouldn't want a porthole or any other junk scavenged from the sea bed, but each to their own. I thought this was supposed to be a sport, or at the very least a pastime. We do it for fun don't we?

You risk your life every time you go diving.

What Mark said. All dives pose some risk and the moment you start getting deep enough that the surface is hard to reach, that risk goes up quickly. I don't understand why people want to go off to learn to dive to 100m+ when they have no goal in mind for doing so other than to say they have done it. But it's each to their own in this life. It may not mean anything to me and seem to be a pointless risk but for other people, it is a goal.

[thistlediver]

What Mark said. All dives pose some risk and the moment you start getting deep enough that the surface is hard to reach, that risk goes up quickly. I don't understand why people want to go off to learn to dive to 100m+ when they have no goal in mind for doing so other than to say they have done it. But it's each to their own in this life. It may not mean anything to me and seem to be a pointless risk but for other people, it is a goal.

its the same as "conquering" Mt Everest, plenty of people with more money than sense risk not only their own lives, but those of their Sherpa guides to be almost carried to the summit and hopefully brought back down still breathing. The only time anything, or anyone, is conquered is when yet another corpse is left to litter the slopes.
However I suppose it provides an income for these guides who seem to welcome these fools and their money. Its not as if it is anything to boast about now, it has been "conquered" by over 80's and 12 year olds.

[BluDL]

You risk your life every time you go diving.

and driving, walking, cycling, going upstairs, going up a ladder.... life is a risk.

[Hot Totty]

and driving, walking, cycling, going upstairs, going up a ladder.... life is a risk.

Surprised I'm not already dead - do all of those on a daily basis, plus crawl under stuff 'play' with flammable/explosive gasses and electrickery, not to mention other 'hazardous' pursuits

[ray]

Report of find and of up to date material

Wreck originally known as SS Vranmald found 22 miles off Hornsea.

Pos. 53.51,82 N 000.16,71 E

Divers present in diving buddies.
Ray Walker - Simon Lunn , Dean Yates - Karen Preiss, Mark Willies, Nick Waite.

Depth 43mtrs low water, vis 4 metres sea state calm, weather sunny.

Dive report from Ray Walker.
Dived in a pair with Simon nice relaxed swim around the lower section of the wreck, the large section stands about 6 to 8 metreshigh off the sea bed which is about 43 metres deep at LWS, the lower section of the wreck stands about 1 to 2 metres off the sea bed, there is no scour but the whole wreck has settled and made a hole in the sea bed which subsequently rises and shallows off to about 39 metres at a distance of about 50 metres away.

The highest part of the wreck is intact and quite large, but the lower section is a jumbled mass of metal, the two parts seem to me to be different, leaving speculation that the large section is in fact the "Vranmalm" and maybe that by fluke it landed on top of the old wreck "SS Umbe" , I have not been able to identify which is the bow or the stern but further investigation of the large intact section should resolve this conundrum.

There is no apparent superstructure showing only the hull, I thought I saw a glimpse of what might be the boiler and subsequently the engine room, the ships holds appear to be empty so she might have been in ballast and returning to Bilboa after unloading the cargo of iron ore at Middlesborough, so far we have had about 8 dives at various state of tide and weather.

The Dive, a straight forward OC wreck dive at depth with slight to moderate narcosis with little to show of interest until the back end of the dive, when we came across a porthole laying on the wreck, as I was swimming towards it to remove it I noticed a round shape poking out of the mud inside a piece of wreckage, I could see what it was even though there was only a small portion of the object showing.

I pointed it out to Simon who still could not see what I was getting excited about, I looked at my air and computer as we were at the back end of our dive, I had about 90 ats of air and there was 20 mins of fizzing on the computer, no great shakes been there a thousand times but this was serious the find of a life time.

I delved in and pulled, nothing happened so I pulled with all my might the object came out of the mud and I could feel the weight and shape it was a bell!, unfortunately with the writhing and tugging my weight belt and bottle came off , the stabbie was still attached but the bottle was floating at the side of me with only the mouthpiece still attached to me, Simon looked on in amazement and alarm, he tried to fit the gear back on, but with the depth and now extremely poor vis he could not figure out how it fitted together, easy on the surface but a mystery at depth, I carried on with my one arm wrestling match but try as I might the bell would not come out of the hole between the plates, and as my air consumption rose along with the fizzing off time we had to leave it.

We sent up the delayed SMB and I tied off the reel to the wreckage at the side of the bells location

and proceeded to ascend with the weight belt hung over my crooked leg and the stabbie and bottle under my arm until we hit a depth where our heads cleared and we could do something about it , we did our deco of about 35 min fiddling about with my gear and hanging on to the tied off reel line, with poor Simon trying to hold my bottle up best he could, but it did not matter as by now we were both fired up!.

On the surface we found Dean and Karen had already gone down and we had missed them no chance of them getting the bell so we had to devise a plan, we could not leave the DSB on show till we came back, and the only thing I had on board was a big in your face orange buoy which was to showy, so we looked around my boat and we managed to get together 4 small clear water bottles, I cut off the DSB and tied the bottles together, these were perfect as far as anybody finding them were concerned, but my fear was would they float and not pull under in the tide, at this point we set off back to Hornsea with everybody in a high mood and sworn to secrecy until the prize was ours, we could not say anything to anybody , careless talk costs bells!.

Part 2 the highs and lows of wrecking.

It was now Wednesday and the team of four we could get together for a midweek dive was myself, my old pirate diving partner Rick , Dean and Simon all of us ready and reved up for the task ahead armed with various jacks and wrecking bars ready to dismantle the wreck around the bell.

We set off from Hornsea in a reasonable sea and good weather, it would be a piece of cake we would send down the line one set of divers to release the bell from the wreckage, and the final pair could then send it up on a lifting bag, what can be easier. On arrival at the dive site the wreck came straight up on the echo sounder much as we expected so far so good, the tide was still running and we did not expect to see the bottles straight away, so we waited for the tide to slacken and it soon became clear that the first part of our strategy was up the shoot, the bloody bottles had sunk, never mind I gave it my best shot with the GPS and tried to get as near as possible to the area where the bottles should be and set our shot line.

It was decided that Rick and myself would go down first as I knew the general area underwater where the bell should be, and Rick had not dived this wreck before, so we kitted up and down we went, sure enough when we got down we still could not see the bottles or more clearer the white string which would be easier to spot and to which the bottles were attached , on the bottom I did not recognise any part of the wreck, so we kept as shallow as possible and swam the full distance around the gunnel of the high part until we came back to the shot line which was draped over the wreck, I looked at Rick and gestured are we going down to the low part, but on looking at our contents gauge and our deco time it did not look a good idea. I gave a final look out over the wreck resigned that it was now down to Dean and Simon, when something tickled my arse, lucky it was not Rick but the bottles which had gone flat and were about 35 meters deep, with the turn of the tide they had drifted back towards the shot line, overjoyed I quickly tied them to the shot line ready for Dean and Simon to follow and the final push.

On reaching the surface we told them what had transpired and the way was clear to our prize, so off they went armed with jacks and wrecking bars, clumping along the bottom straight to the bell, on inspection Simon just rolled over a girder which was fastening the bell in, (if only we had time the first dive to figure it out!) and Dean pulled the bell clear, next problem there wasn't any where to fasten the lifting bag to, so improvising they put the bell as far as it would go inside Dean's goodie bag to send it up, ok in theory and 99 times out of a hundred it would be fine, unfortunately we got the 100, as the lifting bag hit the surface it just flopped over, Rick and myself just looked at one another and our hearts sank, driving over we picked up the lifting bag and found there was nothing attached to it, and not knowing what had happened, did the lifting bag break free from them and the bell is still down, or had something gone terribly wrong and the bell had come off on the way up, there was nothing we could do until Dean and Simon came up.

After what seemed an eternity they appeared on the surface and one look at our faces told the whole story, the bell was again lost. On the way back to Hornsea nobody spoke, and in the van on the way back home it was the same, just like we had come back from a funeral, but not to worry there was always Saturday, we arranged another go and this time it really was like a needle in a haystack it could now be anywhere, we were looking for the bell but at least it was in a white goodie bag which should make it easier to see, and we had put a proper pill on the shot line so at least we would be back in the right area, to start our search.

Part 3 the highs of Wrecking

Third time lucky (unlike HMS King Alfred), this time we had reinforcements at least morally with Sandra (erindoors) and Joyce, who came out on the boat with us, Sandra had been living with me moping around the house and not sleeping the bell was really messing with my head.

this time Dean and Simon went down first to give it the first shot, but unfortunately came away empty handed, so now it was the old pirates Rick and myself, we slid down the shot line and straight away I knew where we were I recognised 2 winches and there was some broken mast sticking up from the wreck, I Knew these would lead us to the site of the porthole which was still down in its original position, sure enough it came into view and I knew the bell should have come back down near to this position as it was very heavy, Rick and I started searching the area looking inside the wreck and out to the desert at the side, we swam along the flattened down plates at the edge of the wreck until I judged we had swam far enough, we turned around and started swimming down the centre of the wreckage and straight in front of us rammed under the plates was the ships binnacle.

Not believing our luck I had a pull on it but it was fast, it was at this point Rick started pointing and literally at the other side of the plate no more than 2 ft away was the bell, neatly bagged up in Deans goodie bag, this time we were well prepared and produced a large white linen sack with 2 holes cut in to take the tails of the lifting bag rope, we quickly placed the bell in the sack and I tied the best granny knot I could muster considering the ever present narcosis which is always present at this depth which was now a high water dive at 48 metres plus, Rick gave the whole package a final check and we started filling the lifting bag, with the bell being so heavy it seemed like an eternity before anything happened, but finally it started floating up towards the surface, we watched the lifting bag rise out of our view, we knelt on the bottom and shook hands as a thank you the emotion we felt was mutual I'm sure a mixture of relief and of a job well done by the full team , up went the DSM and we followed to commence our fizzing off everything now was out of our hands.

The topside team have to take over the narrative now as Rick and myself could only count jellyfish as we waited and fizzed off, everything that happens now is their eyes only.

The lifting bag broke the surface, they quickly motored over to it and Simon jumped in the sea to grab it with the words " I'm not letting the +++++++ thing go down again" , so they lifted it aboard the rib and erindoors took it out of the sack,http://i27.tinypic.com/2hp7ko7.jpg it was this act which triggered all the interest the name on the bell was not the "Vranmalm" as expected, but the " Sarthe" La Rochelle 1908, and it is now the detective work begins.

info to date re the "SARTHE" La Rochelle 1908.

Quite a lot of this info comes from a fellow diver Ron Young who Sandra and myself have known along with his good wife Rose for many years, Ron has now had to give up diving , he had a bad Asthma attack underwater and he thought it prudent to heed this warning and hang up his flippers, but this has not stopped him he now writes books on diving and I can recommend any of them as accurate accounts of the wrecks and dive sites he quotes, his wealth of knowledge gained over the years is standing him in good stead, and nobody could fill a bag up with crunchy fish quite like him.

(Info from Ron Young)

From the T Starke series

Built 1908 by F.C.M. Le Harve No-327

"SARTHE" Cie. de Nav. d'Orbigny-Faustin (A.CAPELLE & CIE) La Rochelle

1912 renamed the "UMBE" by Cai Naviera Vascopngada (F. deAbsolo) BILBAO

In collision on the 31st July 1913 with HMS King Alfred a Drake class cruiser 14,500 tons

( SS Sarthe's displacement was 2,456-tons) (thanks Ron)

The other vessel involved with the collision

(Researched by myself)

HMS King Alfred built by Vickers Armstrong in Barrow Job no 277. It was laid down on the 11-8-1899 and launched on the 28-10-1901 and commissioned on the 22-12-1903, at the time it was one of the fastest fighting ships in the world with a cruising speed of 23 kts, and a top speed of 27 kts.

(the club boat is hard pressed to do 27kts with 4 divers and kit aboard) Its dimensions were 533ft long 71ft breadth 26ft draught and 14,500 tons displacement, much of its life from 1906 to 1910 was on the China Station in the South China Sea where it was the squadrons CinC flag ship, it was during this period on the 28th July 1909 that a sailor from the ship fell into the water while in port at Wei-Hai-Wei harbour, the man fell between HMS King Alfred and an unknown collier and did not surface, a stoker James Carter and able seaman W J Copstake promptly dived in to try and save him, but they were unable to find him and his body was never recovered, they say that things come in three's the lost sailor, colliding with and sinking "SS Cheapside", and then the "Umbe"

("SS Sarthe" 1908) renamed ("Umbe" 1912) in collision with
"HMS King Alfred"

http://i31.tinypic.com/w7n2b5.jpg

The "Umbe" nee "Sarthe" foundered on 31st July 1913 (or was it the 31st April 1915 as stated in ADM 12 at Kew), and was lost following a collision with "HMS King Alfred" armed British cruiser, launched 1901 and finally broken up and sold for scrap in January 1920, HMS King Alfred was previously involved in a collision and sinking of another cargo vessel the "SS Cheapside" ( from information on the web site of the Public Records Office on a general search for HMS King Alfred) SS Cheapside apparently quickly sank on the 18th June 1910 following the collision 7 miles WSW of Start Point, crap driving eh!.

Back to the "SARTHE"/ "UMBE" , its charted position is given as 20 miles east of Spurn Head at 53.37 N 000.39 E this position puts it nearly 30 miles away from our new corrected position, which makes you think was it foggy that day and nobody new where they were? this was in the days when all voyages involved chart plotting and dead reckoning, there was no electronic navigation devices, maybe radio using Morse code was just coming in but at the time this would have no value as a navigation aid only a communication device, in foggy weather all boats relied on the ships bell which would be rung to warn other shipping that another vessel was in their vicinity, maybe a poignant reminder that our ships bell would last have been rang in such dire circumstances.




Public Records Office Kew Gardens London

It is at this point that we have to start fishing for information our self's, and to find out any more about the "SARTHE" the name on the bell , we have to go to the Public Records Office at Kew Gardens London, and research any information on HMS King Alfred this is the only way we can get any information on the SS Sarthe via its new name "SS Umbe" using the reports etc on the collision which should be recorded for posterity, and this is just what Sandra and myself did.

At the PRO Kew you have to register as a reader and you can look at any records you need, fortunately or maybe unfortunately there are hundreds of original very old dusty books and ships logs in great danger of falling to bits on you, and contained in these volumes is all the information about any incidents or Court Marshall reports, the daily workings of all the HMS ships from a rowing boat to a Battle Ship going back to the late 1600s and on to the 1970s, the trick is finding out the relevant book which will show the information which you want.

The best starting point appears to be ADM 12 this is a very old book about 3ft x 2ft x 4" thick, this covers the Admiralty workings for the whole fleet and Admiralty Buildings. It starts in the late 18th century and carries on up to the second world war, it is a very strange feeling to handle a precious original book neatly written, in quill pen at the beginning and ending up in fountain pen, it was in this book that we found out our first clue, it states that a collision took place on the 31st April 1915, a different date from our original date of 31st July 1913, it also gives a date of Aug. 2nd maybe this is the date of the Court Marshall proceedings.

Second entry

Spanish "SS Umbe"

HMS King Alfred Collision between, Court of enquiry,Feb 2 / 4. Court Marshal

Dec. 13th.

The 3rd entry states August 2nd legal proceedings. Officers required as witnesses 1918 "SS UMBE"

No further entries

We then looked in another book but found nothing related to the collision, but there were quarterly accounts about slave numbers being imported into Britain, quite shocking reading these days!

Summary and research still to do.
(Done)

We Have full info on "SS Sarthe" up to the renaming and subsequent sinking, we have a new possible date for sinking, the name of officer being Court Marshalled
(to do) Maybe research

Lt D.G.Jeffery.

later naval career if he had one, but taking in to account the length of time the proceedings are taking did he get the sack or was he later killed in action as the first world war has started?.
(to do) Still have to find the Court Marshal reports and results of who is to blame the Navy or the Merchant man?.
(to do) Still to find out about any casualties or deaths on the "Umbe", maybe there are relatives living in Spain who might be interested to find out about what happened to their ancestors, HMS King Alfred's ship Surgeons report will have casualty information about this.
(to do) All this information is still to find on another trip to the Public Records Office at Kew, it is a very interesting project and it will take our club and any interested members on another dimension in their diving career giving a different slant on the many shipwrecks we just dive and do not think much about afterwards, about the sadness and misery that a sinking boat brings with it, and we hopefully will never experience, but as divers we have access to and the opportunity of exploring the past, we may get a few trophy's to polish, but is there more to it with stories to be told!.
http://i31.tinypic.com/2hehekg.jpg

Steve Chess (rip) found articles in the Times of the time and the court proceedings, the upshot was the navy were found guilty and had to pay out, and Lt Jeffery was found to be at fault so took the blame..

This one of my contributions to History, so anyone can change things once you stick your head underwater..


ray.

[WFO]

Very interesting Ray thanks very much