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  1. #21
    "Three Sheds" Janos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_6301 View Post

    You seem to be confusing opex and capex...
    Depreciation is opex, and appears as such in the SOPL. But as I say I need to get out more!

    Janos
    You can lead a horse to water but you can't climb a ladder with a large bell in both hands - Vic Reeves
    Hellfins - a friendly London dive club
    My music video: Dive the UK, cos that's the way it is. Huh!

  2. #22
    "Three Sheds" Janos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edward3c View Post
    As an auditor I love these arguments over depreciation. Any time period is valid, what I look for is consistency of applying the calculations.

    I discount my cylinders over an arbitrary 5 year period until they hit 25 (it is a figure I like, no other reason). their cost to my diving after that is just maintenance (running cost).
    You need to get out more too! �� Even I don’t do that, as a) life is too short, and b) I have too many cylinders.

    Janos
    Last edited by Janos; 17-11-2017 at 08:48 AM.
    You can lead a horse to water but you can't climb a ladder with a large bell in both hands - Vic Reeves
    Hellfins - a friendly London dive club
    My music video: Dive the UK, cos that's the way it is. Huh!

  3. #23
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    I see Ian's point here: it's not a depreciation / amortisation question, it's more like calculating the cost of a membership.

    There's fixed points of cost; 2 x o2 cleans, 1 visual+o2, 1 hydro+o2. Taken over a *long* period, it actually doesn't make much difference.

    Example cost of ownership over 6 years:
    * If the cylinder is bought 'new' this is one full set of tests.
    * If the cylinder is 1 year old it's still one full set of tests although you do have to do them 1 year earlier.

    So there's a cost of money which you're spending a year earlier, but the interest on ~50 in a year is bugger all.

  4. #24
    Last of the Mohicans gobfish1's Avatar
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    Well 16 quid will go a long way to paying for your next 2k diving holidays ffs

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by gobfish1 View Post
    Well 16 quid will go a long way to paying for your next 2k diving holidays ffs
    It never ceases to amaze me how much effort people will put in to save or claim back trivial amounts of money ...

    If we combine all the time put into this thread I expect it'd sum more than 10 (new) cylinders haha

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by iain/hsm View Post
    MW1963

    Someone is telling you wrong.
    Take the average aluminium price for raw material used in Luxfer scuba cylinders in 2016 was $1600 per tonne and the averaged out exchange rate 1.34 US dollar to GBP

    2015 it was $1670 at $1.52 exchange
    2014 it was $1900 at $1.65 exchange
    2013 it was $1887 at $1.57 exchange
    2012 it was $2050 at $1.23 exchange

    To most folk that is a fall in pricing.

    No matter add the average profit mark up from the factory this being a reasonable 20% from cost.

    But then add the dive importer/distributor mark up and this adds another 60% to the cost (due to this figurative "metals market and currency fluctuations" you mention I guess LOL) But in reality it's a 60% mark up for sticking on a label and shipping out to the dive shops Parcel Farce.

    The LDS adds another 33% to that cost including the delivery charge and the VAT man adds another 20% on the top.

    Personally I think a year from manufacture would be reasonable.
    Not a great deal of variation in US$ Al prices (http://www.infomine.com/investment/m.../aluminum/all/ ). Good luck picking a falling trend out of that and I also don't know where you got your 2012 exchange rate from ... Brexit has managed to make Us$ purchases more expensive though (by virtue of weakening). But the major cost of tank production is not raw materials (about ~16 per Al80 using your figures) but rather the energy used to produce - which is why tanks are not made in the UK as our electricity is too costly.

    As for 20%, 60% 33% - I don't know any tank brand following that model - or was this just another mum and pop witch hunt?

  7. #27
    "Three Sheds" Janos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wibs View Post
    I see Ian's point here: it's not a depreciation / amortisation question, it's more like calculating the cost of a membership.

    There's fixed points of cost; 2 x o2 cleans, 1 visual+o2, 1 hydro+o2. Taken over a *long* period, it actually doesn't make much difference.

    Example cost of ownership over 6 years:
    * If the cylinder is bought 'new' this is one full set of tests.
    * If the cylinder is 1 year old it's still one full set of tests although you do have to do them 1 year earlier.

    So there's a cost of money which you're spending a year earlier, but the interest on ~50 in a year is bugger all.
    How long is long (fnar, fnar). Over a suitably *long* period the purchase cost of the cylinder doesn't make much difference, but I don't see many dive shops giving away free cylinders

    If I were to take Ian's side of the debate, then a better argument would be to say that a 20 year old cylinder with a new test is worth about 75, and so you've lost about 80 over 20 years, meaning that the depreciation is around 2 / year, and the 'lost' test is worth around 1. It's a little bit disingenuous though as most of that loss happens in the first few years....

    Janos

    PS - When someone joins Hellfins halfway through the year they only pay 6 months subs (both BSAC and Hellfins). I'm not sure I'd get away with charging people the full amount!
    You can lead a horse to water but you can't climb a ladder with a large bell in both hands - Vic Reeves
    Hellfins - a friendly London dive club
    My music video: Dive the UK, cos that's the way it is. Huh!

  8. #28
    "Three Sheds" Janos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gobfish1 View Post
    Well 16 quid will go a long way to paying for your next 2k diving holidays ffs
    True. I think the OP is more annoyed by being given a short-tested cylinder after specifically being told they would have a relatively new one.

    Janos
    You can lead a horse to water but you can't climb a ladder with a large bell in both hands - Vic Reeves
    Hellfins - a friendly London dive club
    My music video: Dive the UK, cos that's the way it is. Huh!

  9. #29
    "Three Sheds" Janos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by graham_hk View Post
    It never ceases to amaze me how much effort people will put in to save or claim back trivial amounts of money ...

    If we combine all the time put into this thread I expect it'd sum more than 10 (new) cylinders haha
    We should also include the cost of your time, costing our time, haha.

    Now, back to my revision!

    Janos
    You can lead a horse to water but you can't climb a ladder with a large bell in both hands - Vic Reeves
    Hellfins - a friendly London dive club
    My music video: Dive the UK, cos that's the way it is. Huh!

  10. #30
    Established TDF Member Energy58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janos View Post
    When someone joins Hellfins halfway through the year they only pay 6 months subs (both BSAC and Hellfins). I'm not sure I'd get away with charging people the full amount!
    The local golf club tried that for a while and wondered why no one joined after about March just so they could have a nice even price despite the fact they didn't sell any for half the year - I fear for humanity sometimes

    Also depreciation is accountant's pretend money - all that really counts is what you actually pay in the stuff you can exchange for beer so a short test is a real cost as you will have 50 fewer beer tokens sooner. BTW I knew an accountant type who ran a fully-fledged household budget on a PC that went down to individual cost centres like "dog" - he was never able to give me a reply as to what happened if the dog overspent one month...
    Last edited by Energy58; 20-11-2017 at 10:01 AM.


 
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