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  1. #31
    M.D., Beaver Sports (Yorks) Ltd
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    Quote Originally Posted by iain/hsm View Post
    MW1963

    Someone is telling you wrong.
    Take the average aluminium price for raw material used in Luxfer scuba cylinders in 2016 was $1600 per tonne and the averaged out exchange rate 1.34 US dollar to GBP

    2015 it was $1670 at $1.52 exchange
    2014 it was $1900 at $1.65 exchange
    2013 it was $1887 at $1.57 exchange
    2012 it was $2050 at $1.23 exchange

    To most folk that is a fall in pricing.

    No matter add the average profit mark up from the factory this being a reasonable 20% from cost.

    But then add the dive importer/distributor mark up and this adds another 60% to the cost (due to this figurative "metals market and currency fluctuations" you mention I guess LOL) But in reality it's a 60% mark up for sticking on a label and shipping out to the dive shops Parcel Farce.

    The LDS adds another 33% to that cost including the delivery charge and the VAT man adds another 20% on the top.

    Personally I think a year from manufacture would be reasonable.
    Iain, without getting in to an argument, the figures quoted for Pound Sterling V US Dollar are completely wrong, please see http://www.x-rates.com/average/?from...nt=1&year=2012 for example for average monthly exchange rates, it's simple to change the years and look. Being involved in US Dollar and Euro exchange rate on a virtual daily basis for over 30 years, I do have a bit of experience in this regard. Aluminium data can be found at https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/aluminum As we all know, steel cylinders remain the biggest seller in the UK anyway....

    Bearing in mind your vastly superior experience of the diving trade, you should also be aware that your profit margin figures quoted for importers/distributors and retailers are simply pie in the sky and have never been the case with any type of cylinders. LOL

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by MW1963 View Post
    Iain, without getting in to an argument, the figures quoted for Pound Sterling V US Dollar are completely wrong, please see http://www.x-rates.com/average/?from...nt=1&year=2012 for example for average monthly exchange rates, it's simple to change the years and look. Being involved in US Dollar and Euro exchange rate on a virtual daily basis for over 30 years, I do have a bit of experience in this regard. Aluminium data can be found at https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/aluminum As we all know, steel cylinders remain the biggest seller in the UK anyway....

    Bearing in mind your vastly superior experience of the diving trade, you should also be aware that your profit margin figures quoted for importers/distributors and retailers are simply pie in the sky and have never been the case with any type of cylinders. LOL

    No argument intended but it is simply untrue what you stated earlier that the increased cost of scuba cylinders has been due to the material and exchange rate.
    Once again, take the average aluminium price for raw material used in Luxfer scuba cylinders, and for clarity I have added the Euro to sterling pricing at three month average LME
    I quoted correctly and accuratly and for brevity I enclose the Euro figures out of comparison.

    2016 it was $1610 / tonne at $1.34 exchange USD to GDP and €1.22 Euro to GBP
    2015 it was $1674 / tonne at $1.52 exchange USD to GDP and €1.38 Euro to GBP
    2014 it was $1896 / tonne at $1.65 exchange USD to GDP and €1.27 Euro to GBP
    2013 it was $1887 / tonne at $1.57 exchange USD to GDP and €1.18 Euro to GBP
    2012 it was $2049 / tonne at $1.59 exchange USD to GDP and €1.23 Euro to GBP

    However you wish to play this the figures quoted above speak for themselves and are precise and accurate. Material pricing has dropped by 20% since 2012 and exchange rate up by 15% I will let the accountants here work out if they agree it’s cheaper. However as far as your statment.

    Quote Originally Posted by MW1963 View Post
    cylinders have increased in price somewhat over recent years due to the metals market and currency fluctuations...
    I would respectfully disagree.

    Look forget your "dig" at my experience its a cheap shot. All that matters here is truth and accuracy, that's all that counts.
    Further its a divers forum for divers we can discuss how and what we like but accuracy and truth is critical.
    If you dont like that then may I suggest you do as the Yanks did and buy the forum, Your call.

    As for pie in the sky I guess 60% is a tad low when you consider what price tat from China costs landed UK compared to the LDS trade price.

    But specifically the UK cylinder manufacturers I quoted are not the folk making the money, neither is it the material cost or exchange rate.
    or for that matter is it the LDS who IMHO needs to be aware of how the UK diving distributing industry is playing them.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by graham_hk View Post
    SNIP Not a great deal of variation in US$ Al prices

    I also don't know where you got your 2012 exchange rate from ...

    Brexit has managed to make Us$ purchases more expensive though (by virtue of £ weakening).
    Graham_hk.

    1. Agreed, not much difference in the raw material price, for the last five years even if we add 2016 (all prices quoted were three month LME) lowest price for 5 years
    Hence as my reply to MW1963 questioning why he would state as a “major player” the cost of raw material and exchange rate being a reason for the price inflation.
    Well spotted for the small mistake in the 2014 rate I originally quoted both the $ and € rates and later removed the Euro but left one line in but its of no matter as it doesn’t alter the position. (Corrected in my above post to MW.) and with respect Brexit this is your red herring excuss for next year I guess as this is too early to take effect in the figures quoted.


    Quote Originally Posted by graham_hk View Post
    But the major cost of tank production is not raw materials (about ~£16 per Al80 using your figures) but rather the energy used to produce - which is why tanks are not made in the UK as our electricity is too costly.
    Again another red Herring let me offer that the energy used in production I refer to is cold impact extrusion and the heat is self generated, the only additional heating is by gas, Further we are not talking domestic cost the cost of electricity to boil your kettle is around 20p per Kw/hr. Industrial rate in the UK gas production sector is around 2 to 3p per Kw/hr
    Non the less like MW you are giving us red herrings that do not affect the price of the product.

    Quote Originally Posted by graham_hk View Post

    As for 20%, 60% 33% - I don't know any tank brand following that model - or was this just another mum and pop witch hunt?

    No it is not quite the reverse. As most on the forum are aware you are the sole distributor for Halcylon for South East Asia market
    As such I would have thought you would have understood the mark up's involved from manufacturer to distributor (your buying price) and distributor to the LDS dive shops and the control put upon them regarding selling price.

    As for being another mum and pop witch hunt, the term is Mom and Pop and if you don’t understand the reason or the specific folk we are talking I am happy to discuss.

    As for 20%, 60% 33% - and you not knowing any tank brand following that model - Try Riverside California.

    It should be noted not all UK LDS are Mom and Pop.

    Only those UK shops that don’t dive GUE and don’t have a Halcyon trade account.





    …………. Yeah Just kidding.




    ………… No I deadly serious.


    Delate as appropriate.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by iain/hsm View Post
    As for being another mum and pop witch hunt, the term is Mom and Pop and if you don’t understand the reason or the specific folk we are talking I am happy to discuss.
    No surprise you're one of those tedious little men who picks up on grammar or auto correct - good job though!

    As for your red herrings - you're clearly on another holy quest to out the dive industry for making a living. I really do wonder why you don't get more work from mom and pop shops ... Now, please explain to me, since we buy pretty much all raw materials from overseas or export finished products into UK, how Brexit and the resultant drop in the £ will not make things more expensive - perhaps you can magically make all the spurious claims of the campaign come true - our NHS needs that 350million a week don't you know! Next you'll be telling us the world is flat and that Stone Age sky fairy tales are a way to live.

    Firstly you said raw materials were declining but you agree with me above that they are not - so which is it?

    Secondly you appear to be saying that since the process of manufacture generate heat there is no energetic cost for manufacture ... back to school for you then. Your science teacher I am sure will be happy to see you again.

    Thirdly, our halcyon dealers in Asia do not have those margins and neither do we are distributor. As you probably know its illegal to control prices in Europe and therefore dive shops will do their best to sell at a loss - either way BtS didn't enjoy that much margin running the European distribution for Halcyon (and neither did UK dealers) - and they certainly don't for Eurocylinders and Luxfer. I don't know (or care to be honest) what Halcyon's markup is - I do see the life style of the person who runs the company and the owners from which I can only guess that your figures are incorrect. As for other brands that we handle - very similar actually. Riverside California - maybe, but since you have chosen to be cryptic in your description who can say.

  5. #35
    Established TDF Member jamesp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iain/hsm View Post
    Graham_hk.
    Again another red Herring let me offer that the energy used in production I refer to is cold impact extrusion and the heat is self generated, the only additional heating is by gas, Further we are not talking domestic cost the cost of electricity to boil your kettle is around 20p per Kw/hr. Industrial rate in the UK gas production sector is around 2 to 3p per Kw/hr
    Non the less like MW you are giving us red herrings that do not affect the price of the product.


    .
    Bollocks.

    If not can I have the suppliers number; I would be lucky to get 13p Kw/h (currently 14.6) on power.

  6. #36
    M.D., Beaver Sports (Yorks) Ltd
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    Iain, well if that's your view then I guess you'll be sticking to it, being the guy who does the pricing and spends so much time looking at X-Rates.com I would like to feel that I do actually know something about this matter. But hey-ho, kind of get used to the feeling that you know absolutely sweet FA by the time you're 55 and ran a successful company for 35 years.

    Can you please advise who is selling Chinese cylinders?? I've never come across any.

    You always try and come across as having vast knowledge of our industry, I'm amazed at the lack of it in regard to cylinders and the fact that tiny margins have always been the norm.



    Quote Originally Posted by iain/hsm View Post
    No argument intended but it is simply untrue what you stated earlier that the increased cost of scuba cylinders has been due to the material and exchange rate.
    Once again, take the average aluminium price for raw material used in Luxfer scuba cylinders, and for clarity I have added the Euro to sterling pricing at three month average LME
    I quoted correctly and accuratly and for brevity I enclose the Euro figures out of comparison.

    2016 it was $1610 / tonne at $1.34 exchange USD to GDP and €1.22 Euro to GBP
    2015 it was $1674 / tonne at $1.52 exchange USD to GDP and €1.38 Euro to GBP
    2014 it was $1896 / tonne at $1.65 exchange USD to GDP and €1.27 Euro to GBP
    2013 it was $1887 / tonne at $1.57 exchange USD to GDP and €1.18 Euro to GBP
    2012 it was $2049 / tonne at $1.59 exchange USD to GDP and €1.23 Euro to GBP

    However you wish to play this the figures quoted above speak for themselves and are precise and accurate. Material pricing has dropped by 20% since 2012 and exchange rate up by 15% I will let the accountants here work out if they agree it’s cheaper. However as far as your statment.



    I would respectfully disagree.

    Look forget your "dig" at my experience its a cheap shot. All that matters here is truth and accuracy, that's all that counts.
    Further its a divers forum for divers we can discuss how and what we like but accuracy and truth is critical.
    If you dont like that then may I suggest you do as the Yanks did and buy the forum, Your call.

    As for pie in the sky I guess 60% is a tad low when you consider what price tat from China costs landed UK compared to the LDS trade price.

    But specifically the UK cylinder manufacturers I quoted are not the folk making the money, neither is it the material cost or exchange rate.
    or for that matter is it the LDS who IMHO needs to be aware of how the UK diving distributing industry is playing them.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesp View Post
    SNIP

    If not can I have the suppliers number; I would be lucky to get 13p Kw/h (currently 14.6) on power.
    James.

    Er the UK aluminium smelter I referenced is in Fort William Scotland it runs on hydro electric power.
    Feel free to bring a few buckets for your needs when you pass by.


 
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