Hello and welcome to our community! Is this your first visit?
Register
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 26

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    Established TDF Member Paulo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Ireland
    Posts
    12,822
    Likes (Given)
    5087
    Likes (Received)
    4481
    Blog Entries
    1

    Diver fatality in Scapa Flow

    Sad news, fatality on the Markgraf

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...tland-41658799

    RIP
    Rememeber anything you read on the internet was probably written by some guy sitting at home in his underpants! Including this !!

    Illegitimi non carborundum

  2. #2
    Not short, just concentrated awesome ;) smileydiver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    London
    Posts
    4,059
    Likes (Given)
    4772
    Likes (Received)
    2234
    The second in a few weeks. Very sad and I imagine I am not the only one worried that a TDF member is there at the mo. I hope they weren't involved but thoughts with all the loved ones and those that were involved
    The sea, once it casts its spell, holds one in its net of wonder forever - Jacques Cousteau

  3. #3
    TDF Member topper133's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Yorkshire, UK
    Posts
    195
    Likes (Given)
    58
    Likes (Received)
    50
    Another sad loss and tragic event, but what I never see in this sport is incident analysis where people can learn from other mistakes or situations (not saying this was a mistake on anybodies part I have no more info than whats in the BBC article), but I fear this is the last we will hear of this, along with the many other incidents this year.

    Having come from another extreme sport (skydiving), incidents there are discussed and analysed publicly, not for the purpose of manufacturer or user bashing, but purely to learn and improve the safety of the sport. Why is diving so closed when it comes to discussing these?

  4. #4
    Established TDF Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    East Midlands
    Posts
    2,927
    Likes (Given)
    847
    Likes (Received)
    1144
    Blog Entries
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by topper133 View Post
    Having come from another extreme sport (skydiving), incidents there are discussed and analysed publicly, not for the purpose of manufacturer or user bashing, but purely to learn and improve the safety of the sport. Why is diving so closed when it comes to discussing these?
    I think the problem comes from it being extremely difficult to tell exactly what happened and what the root causes were when a diving accident occurs (not always of course but often. Even the coroners seem to have difficulty with it). As a result, you get a wagonload of speculation and very little fact, and that makes for a pretty shaky base to try to learn from. Just take the CCR accident list for example; packed with sketchy "facts", some of which are misleading or plain wrong and a fair amount of the analysis is used to push a revolutionary product that doesn't exist yet. There are some groups who try to get to the facts and share learning - BSAC's list and DISMS for example.

  5. #5
    Established TDF Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    West Lothian
    Posts
    1,940
    Likes (Given)
    687
    Likes (Received)
    626
    Quote Originally Posted by jturner View Post
    I think the problem comes from it being extremely difficult to tell exactly what happened and what the root causes were when a diving accident occurs (not always of course but often. Even the coroners seem to have difficulty with it). As a result, you get a wagonload of speculation and very little fact, and that makes for a pretty shaky base to try to learn from. Just take the CCR accident list for example; packed with sketchy "facts", some of which are misleading or plain wrong and a fair amount of the analysis is used to push a revolutionary product that doesn't exist yet. There are some groups who try to get to the facts and share learning - BSAC's list and DISMS for example.
    DAN do publish incident reports as well AFAIK

  6. #6
    Moderator GLOC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Near Malmesbury, Wiltshire
    Posts
    3,068
    Likes (Given)
    3083
    Likes (Received)
    2176
    Quote Originally Posted by topper133 View Post
    Another sad loss and tragic event, but what I never see in this sport is incident analysis where people can learn from other mistakes or situations (not saying this was a mistake on anybodies part I have no more info than whats in the BBC article), but I fear this is the last we will hear of this, along with the many other incidents this year.

    Having come from another extreme sport (skydiving), incidents there are discussed and analysed publicly, not for the purpose of manufacturer or user bashing, but purely to learn and improve the safety of the sport. Why is diving so closed when it comes to discussing these?
    Topper, incident reporting and analysis is a very big subject. One which Tim, JT and others have mentioned I am involved in.

    Factors include:
    - No effective taxonomy to determine causality - most reporting systems focus on outcomes e.g. OOA, not 'how' or 'why'.
    - No independent reporting system which has the support of all of the agencies.
    - A poor just culture when it comes to talking about incidents
    - People invest a massive amount of money and time into diving, they don't like to know they are fallible.
    - A focus on outcomes rather than failed processes.
    - The lack of accountability for the 'system' failures by organisations - training organisations have an 'air gap' between them and the client using the instructor to hold the risk.
    - Very few people formally trained in incident analysis at a system-level rather than looking at the proximal cause.
    - Risk is in the eye of the beholder, so how do you manage risk
    - Fatalities are emergent events (multiple, apparently irrelevant, factors converge but are only apparent in hindsight.)
    - The lack of resource (people, IT systems) to undertake data capture, analysis and reporting and create change.
    - A fear that reporting leads to control over the sport
    - Competition which is based around blaming other organisations for 'unsafe' practices.

    Lots more on the blog here https://www.humanfactors.academy/p/blog and couple of videos here https://vimeo.com/user40492168, one from TekDiveUSA and one from the Long Beach Scuba Show.

    How to solve it? Now therein lies the challenge!

    Regards
    Gareth

    www.imagesoflife.co.uk - Underwater Print Sales, Teaching and Stock Library
    www.cognitas.org.uk - Improving Safety by Challenging Current Practices
    www.divingincidents.org - Diving Incident and Safety Management System (DISMS)
    - 2014 Report here

    “Set your expectations high; find men and women whose integrity and values you respect; get their agreement on a course of action; and give them your ultimate trust.”

    “It is far better to be trusted and respected than it is to be liked.”

  7. #7
    TDF Member topper133's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Yorkshire, UK
    Posts
    195
    Likes (Given)
    58
    Likes (Received)
    50
    I guess that make sense, in some (maybe a lot) of circumstances, but certainly not all, just seems like any incident, even near misses, are quietly forgotten.

  8. #8
    Gone diving back later Vanny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Essssssex
    Posts
    1,021
    Likes (Given)
    367
    Likes (Received)
    262
    Any diving incident can be reported to the BSAC (governing body) incident recording system. Not just BSAC involved incidents. This is collated annually and reported on at the annual diving conference, this weekend. Trends may be identified and training influenced within the BSAC accordingly, other agencies are free to use the info provided.

    Whilst this isn't perfect for any number of reasons , accuracy of reports for example, it is better than nothing and goes someway to answering your question.

  9. #9
    Prior Member Tim Digger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    West Midlands UK
    Posts
    3,920
    Likes (Given)
    2531
    Likes (Received)
    2913
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanny View Post
    Any diving incident can be reported to the BSAC (governing body) incident recording system. Not just BSAC involved incidents. This is collated annually and reported on at the annual diving conference, this weekend. Trends may be identified and training influenced within the BSAC accordingly, other agencies are free to use the info provided.

    Whilst this isn't perfect for any number of reasons , accuracy of reports for example, it is better than nothing and goes someway to answering your question.
    This is both the strength and the weakness of the BSAC reporting system, while it makes some effort to obtain reports from non BSAC members and this improves the overall numbers and completeness of the report, it makes drawing conclusions re changes in incidence of incidents very difficult as there is no knowledge of the number of dives (or divers) performing dives. Just suppose that due to economic downturn, bad weather or a number of other causes the total number of dives in British waters is say 70% of the previous years, this will influence the statistics and give a spuriously favourable number of incidents. This problem is common to any collection of dives from any geographic locality and Gloc has spent a long time trying to solve it. Largely without success. Add to this the difficulties already alluded to re ascertaining the cause of a given incident and it becomes impossible to see whether any change in training, diving practices or health screening is making any difference.
    I do agree that there is merit in discussing individual cases but there is an understandable reluctance to do this early and before an inquest that often takes months.
    Evolution is great at solving problems. It's the methods that concern me.
    Tim Digger

  10. #10
    TDF Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    33
    Likes (Given)
    73
    Likes (Received)
    8
    As those two divers died in Scotland then Scottish Law prevails.
    In Scotland there is no “Coroner” and no “inquest”.
    It is the Procurator Fiscal.
    He/she will decide if a FAI is required…… and for recreational diving deaths this is rarely done.
    The PF may not be a diver but they will spend a fair chunk of time understanding what happened and if there any lessons to be learned.
    They may well interview relevant parties (privately).

    My thoughts are with the family and friends of those two divers.


 
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •