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  1. #11
    Grumpy Git, Not Old Yet...
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    Deco is SUCH a small part of planning at that level that all that is really needed is a knowledge of no-stop times at given depths, ie tables.

    Run EAN32 as standard and you will not hit deco on a single cylinder dive, unless you are WAY beyond your depth limit.

    Dive planning is now about min gas (1200L or 100bar in a single 12L from 30m, or 80 bar from 18m and above). Subtract 80 bar from your start pressure, choose your gas planning model (all in, halves or thirds) and then work backwards to available time based on bar/min SAC. SAC of 2 bar/min at surface is 5 bar/min at 15m. 230 bar fill? 150 bar useable gas. That's 30 mins all in, or turn at 15min/155bar for halves or 10 min/180bar for thirds. Super frickin simple.

    30 mins at 18m is SO far short of deco it ain't even worth worrying about.

    Concentrate on the REAL essentials of diving - buoyancy and trim. Everything else is easy after that...
    DISCLAIMER: If you don't understand this shit, ask a grown up, preferably someone with deep pockets, who your widow/kids can sue. Don't trust people on the internet with your life, your credit card details or your naked selfies! This advice may contain, or indeed be written by someone who is (clinically), nuts.

  2. #12
    Established TDF Member Energy58's Avatar
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    We do exactly the opposite of Tel - everyone has to dive with a computer and we have a box of Zoops we lend out to trainees. The big commercial agencies I am aware of teach computers (at least as an option) from the first open water dive and have done for years.

    BSAC 88s are for planning all those second dives you do in a mountain lake on the last day of your holiday before getting on a plane...

  3. #13
    Established TDF Member Tel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Energy58 View Post
    We do exactly the opposite of Tel - everyone has to dive with a computer and we have a box of Zoops we lend out to trainees. The big commercial agencies I am aware of teach computers (at least as an option) from the first open water dive and have done for years.

    BSAC 88s are for planning all those second dives you do in a mountain lake on the last day of your holiday before getting on a plane...

    We also have a box of Zoops (well they are in a Stanley fat max, but same thing)



    We have about 20-30 crossovers from the "big commercial agencies" each year and the number who are unable
    to understand computers, let alone tables is remarkably high.

    Might sound daft, but teaching the 88 Tables (or any other for that matter) is not about tables, it's a graphic explaining
    the core principles of tracking N2 and putting that together with the disciplines needed on the dive.

    Being a square profile it has limited and simple variants and enables the student amongst a myriad of other things
    going on, a sense of achievement when dive is done as planned.

    Sure can whack a Zoop on, but like those crossovers, if asked some pretty basic questions, let's just say the answers can
    be flaky at best.

    As educators and at entry level do we take the easy way out or do we set the ground rules in diving for the years ahead?
    My money is on the latter as such rules will work when the computer inevitably doesn't

  4. #14
    TDF Member
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    I think learning tables is a good idea. Makes you think about what is happening. Now as a PADI trained diver (retreats behind sofa) we didn't use the famous 88s but we did use PADI's tables. I don't do deco, 'cos I am old and a coward, but I still like to use the tables after a dive and work out what is happening before the next dive. Good for the brain and means you have a mental picture to keep checking that the thing on your wrist hasn't thrown a wobbly.

    David.

  5. #15
    "Three Sheds" Janos's Avatar
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    Computers are absolutely fine at ocean diver level. Especially if they have one already.

    Janos
    You can lead a horse to water but you can't climb a ladder with a large bell in both hands - Vic Reeves
    Hellfins - a friendly London dive club
    My music video: Dive the UK, cos that's the way it is. Huh!

  6. #16
    Does not play nicely with others drysuitdiver's Avatar
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    when they do have one its good as a teaching aid . shows the difference between tables and a computer brilliantly . especially in OO5.

    Old kitwhores like me have multiple computers and show the students all weird and wacky ones.
    Those who think they got away with things had better watch their backs.

  7. #17
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    Knowing how to use the 88s will stand them in good stead if they progress onto technical diving as they can use them as bailout tables if their deco gas fails. And have much the same deco obligation.

    Back when PADI used to teach tables to everyone, I wonder what percentage of OW divers could successfully calculate their pressure group on a repetitive dive 6 months after doing the course. I doubt it was very high.
    See http://www.scuba-addict.co.uk/ for my Weymouth dive trips and trip reports including Bonaire & Cape Verde in 2015

  8. #18
    Established TDF Member nigel hewitt's Avatar
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    The first course I ever did that actually acknowledged the existence of a computer was Rebreather Hypoxic Trimix.

    Having the instructor signal BAIL OUT and then watch you switch to your OC gas and then switch your computers to OC on that gas was a very good drill because it was harder than I thought.

    I doubt if an OD needs that level yet...
    Helium, because I'm worth it.
    Waterboarding at Guantanamo Bay sounded like a radical holiday opportunity until I looked it up.

  9. #19
    With age comes wisdom ray's Avatar
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    Back in the good old days we did a Diving Officers BSAC course on tables for deco diving, we all did the course and were sat around waiting for the beer break in the local pub.. The instructor brought out one of the new fangled computers, I think it was an Edge the size of a house brick on his arm..
    He said "If one of your divers came along with one of these what would you do?".. We all started discussing the scenarios and saying we would not let them dive with it and they would have to use tables and other different ideas... The instructor sat there patiently listening to us all then chimed up, " Your all talking bollacks in a couple of years time all divers will be using dive computers", how right he was!..

    ray.
    I am the one and only.. First member to have a thread knocked back... And again.

  10. #20
    Established TDF Member OutOfTest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_6301 View Post
    Deco is SUCH a small part of planning at that level that all that is really needed is a knowledge of no-stop times at given depths, ie tables.

    Run EAN32 as standard and you will not hit deco on a single cylinder dive, unless you are WAY beyond your depth limit.

    Dive planning is now about min gas (1200L or 100bar in a single 12L from 30m, or 80 bar from 18m and above). Subtract 80 bar from your start pressure, choose your gas planning model (all in, halves or thirds) and then work backwards to available time based on bar/min SAC. SAC of 2 bar/min at surface is 5 bar/min at 15m. 230 bar fill? 150 bar useable gas. That's 30 mins all in, or turn at 15min/155bar for halves or 10 min/180bar for thirds. Super frickin simple.

    30 mins at 18m is SO far short of deco it ain't even worth worrying about.

    Concentrate on the REAL essentials of diving - buoyancy and trim. Everything else is easy after that...
    Who figures out SAC in bar/min?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 
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