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Dive life - was: out of business, now: re-opened, read thread for details

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  • Baron015
    Nav jāuztraucas par manu zirgu
    • Jan 2013
    • 4232

    #31
    Dive life - out of business

    Originally posted by Chrisch
    This only works if someone is there to witness you take it and you sign a receipt to say you have the goods back. One of my customers went bust and we were invited to collect our goods at specific time as agreed and in the presence of the administrators. If you turn up at locked premises and break in you are breaking and entering. If you take something that is not yours that is theft - in addition. If you can prove that the item recovered is yours it is just breaking and entering. You have no legal right to enter anyone else's premises even if said premises are unlocked. If the shop is not trading your right of entry as a customer has lapsed as it is de facto no longer a shop. It is quite possible it is a rented unit so the owner has not given you permission and the lessee is in breach of contract and cannot give you permission either.

    A simple retention of title clause on every invoice is all you need. Goods left for repair you will have a receipt detailing the goods. If not hard luck.
    There is no such thing as breaking and entering in U.K.

    Are you referring to burglary, criminal damage and/or illegal trespass ?

    There are ways to avoid actually doing those things if you are careful


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


    Memento mori.

    Comment

    • Chrisch
      Tofu eating wokerato
      • Jan 2013
      • 10508

      #32
      Originally posted by Baron015
      There is no such thing as breaking and entering in U.K.

      Are you referring to burglary, criminal damage and/or illegal trespass ?

      There are ways to avoid actually doing those things if you are careful
      Breaking and entering is the everyday phrase for the offence of burglary, so I guess that is what you would be charged with. If you break into the premisses that would I think constitute criminal damage as you need to break something to do it.

      The coppers would find something to do you for I'm sure.

      My experience of collecting the goods was very easy - the chap simply ask me to clearly identify the goods that were on our invoice and to assure him that they could not have come from another supplier (which was the case as our part number was on them).
      There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and Tory corruption and I am not sure about the universe.
      With apologies to Albert Einstein.

      Comment

      • Baron015
        Nav jāuztraucas par manu zirgu
        • Jan 2013
        • 4232

        #33
        Originally posted by Chrisch
        Breaking and entering is the everyday phrase for the offence of burglary, so I guess that is what you would be charged with. If you break into the premisses that would I think constitute criminal damage as you need to break something to do it.

        The coppers would find something to do you for I'm sure.

        My experience of collecting the goods was very easy - the chap simply ask me to clearly identify the goods that were on our invoice and to assure him that they could not have come from another supplier (which was the case as our part number was on them).
        I believe Theft in general and Burglary specifically requires a test for Dishonesty, which would seem not to apply in this case.


        Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


        Memento mori.

        Comment

        • drysuitdiver
          Banned
          • Dec 2012
          • 8712

          #34
          Originally posted by Baron015
          I believe Theft in general and Burglary specifically requires a test for Dishonesty, which would seem not to apply in this case.


          Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
          Civil and criminal have different burden of proofs .

          The liquidators don't have to prove the goods are not yours . They are looking at it that you are trying to permanently deprive them of their stuff.




          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

          Comment

          • braun
            Cancelled Account
            • Jan 2013
            • 3658

            #35
            Definition of burglary:

            Comment

            • The Real Paulus
              Self Defecating
              • Jul 2016
              • 1842

              #36
              Originally posted by Baron015
              So it being your stuff you will have proof of ownership.

              Now go collect your stuff. No law broken. No grounds for prosecution.


              Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
              So, you take your best mammoth fur underpants to the dry cleaners and they give you a ticket/receipt. So long as it identifies your property you will be able to claim it back.
              The administrators don't need to hold the door open for you. You provide your proof of ownership within the prescribed time at the prescribed location in the prescribed manner.
              Anything other than that will be frowned on.

              If you don't have proof of ownership it's more difficult. Your claim could sit with them for some time while they audit stock and other equipment.

              But as bizarre as it might seem, you have no automatic right to remove your goods from the premises of an insolvent business or organisation.

              My own business once supplied a joinery package for a branch of a well known coffee shop. The main contractor still had it on their premises when they went bust, taking us for stupid money (£187k). That package was maybe £10k worth (can't remember, can't think through mental scar tissue) and we hadn't been paid for it.
              I sat in front of the insolvency geezer to be told there was zilch in the pot and we wouldn't get a single penny in the pound. I asked about the joinery package they had in storage and we were told it belonged to the main contractor's client as they had paid for it!! Any attempt to remove it would be theft.
              The insolvency people had conspired against us with the client. If we'd gotten our stuff back we could have asked the client for payment directly. They'd have got their shop open and we'd have got our money. The liquidators would have got nothing.
              As it was, we were the only losers.

              Comment

              • Chrisch
                Tofu eating wokerato
                • Jan 2013
                • 10508

                #37
                Originally posted by The Real Paulus
                ...
                The insolvency people had conspired against us with the client. If we'd gotten our stuff back we could have asked the client for payment directly. They'd have got their shop open and we'd have got our money. The liquidators would have got nothing.
                As it was, we were the only losers.
                We had a customer go bust a few years back and they paid some people (their mates) and not others. The insolvency practice were in my view even more dishonest and crooked than the customer. The one thing running a company here has taught me is that the UK is a deeply and profoundly corrupt country.
                There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and Tory corruption and I am not sure about the universe.
                With apologies to Albert Einstein.

                Comment

                • The Real Paulus
                  Self Defecating
                  • Jul 2016
                  • 1842

                  #38
                  Originally posted by Chrisch
                  We had a customer go bust a few years back and they paid some people (their mates) and not others. The insolvency practice were in my view even more dishonest and crooked than the customer. The one thing running a company here has taught me is that the UK is a deeply and profoundly corrupt country.
                  Ok, we are agreeing with each other again

                  I've had a few dealings with insolvency practitioners, none of them were good experiences. They are very much like lawyers in my view - a tiny bit parasitic.

                  People asked me why I didn't just continue on my own after my difficult separation from my business partner. My only reason was that during that period I got a deep insight into the morality of the people I would have been continuing to do business with. Contracting in retail/leisure was extremely cut throat with back-handers, espionage, lies, bullying and even threats of violence.
                  Pretty much like any other business I guess...

                  Comment

                  • dynarob
                    TDF Ski Bum
                    • Dec 2012
                    • 367

                    #39
                    Originally posted by The Real Paulus
                    I've had a few dealings with insolvency practitioners, none of them were good experiences. They are very much like lawyers in my view - a tiny bit parasitic.
                    Generally yes, but there is the odd gem. I don't normally even bother filling out the statements of claim as it's usually a waste of time. Last year however I was actually phoned by a liquidator to ask why I hadn't filled out the form, I proceeded to tell him and he replied well it would be worth your while as I'm about to declare a 20p in the pound dividend with the expectation of a further 10p in a years time I was shocked and delighted !

                    www.facebook.com/ChesilCove

                    Comment

                    • greatwhite
                      Established TDF Member
                      • May 2013
                      • 2000

                      #40
                      If you climbed through an open window is that seen a breaking and entry?

                      Comment

                      • The Real Paulus
                        Self Defecating
                        • Jul 2016
                        • 1842

                        #41
                        When I was made redundant in 2000 I was one of a few asked to do a couple of extra weeks to get some work in progress out to customers so they could invoice it. It was over Easter and they wanted us to work right through the bank holiday weekend. They cocked up on the payrole big time and over paid me hugely. I kept it to myself.

                        Then about 2 years ago I got a letter from them (via my old address). Inside was a cheque for about £75. It was some dividend payout which I didn't understand. Anyway, I checked Companies house and found that the company had only just been dissolved! So maybe 14 years to get everything in.

                        Comment

                        • The Real Paulus
                          Self Defecating
                          • Jul 2016
                          • 1842

                          #42
                          Originally posted by greatwhite
                          If you climbed through an open window is that seen a breaking and entry?

                          Anything on the premises is part of the company until proved otherwise, but they'd have to catch you in the act to care about it.
                          I don't know if anyone has ever ended up on the wrong side of the law recovering their own stuff but it possible.

                          They usually change the locks on the same day they take charge. They may put security in place too.

                          Comment

                          • Baron015
                            Nav jāuztraucas par manu zirgu
                            • Jan 2013
                            • 4232

                            #43
                            Dive life - out of business

                            Originally posted by Chrisch
                            We had a customer go bust a few years back and they paid some people (their mates) and not others. The insolvency practice were in my view even more dishonest and crooked than the customer. The one thing running a company here has taught me is that the UK is a deeply and profoundly corrupt country.
                            You say the UK is deeply and profoundly corrupt country

                            I say "most people are selfish and inconsiderate tossers"

                            What is the difference, we are saying the same thing yes ?


                            Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


                            Memento mori.

                            Comment

                            • Spindrift
                              TDF Member
                              • Feb 2016
                              • 184

                              #44
                              Originally Posted by greatwhite
                              If you climbed through an open window is that seen a breaking and entry?
                              As Baron015 mentioned previously, there is no offence in the UK of breaking and entering - it's burglary. If you enter part of a premises as a trespasser, with intent to steal (and a few others not relevant) thats all that's needed for the offence to be complete. That can be as little as walking behind a shop counter - its part of a premises you are not invited to be on, so if you go behind a counter intending to steal, you commit burglary. In short, you don't need to break in, to burgle.

                              However the offence requires intent to steal. If you have an honestly held belief you own or have rights to the property you go to take, you may have a defence. Safer to go through the formal channels though...

                              Comment

                              • Chrisch
                                Tofu eating wokerato
                                • Jan 2013
                                • 10508

                                #45
                                Originally posted by Baron015
                                You say the UK is deeply and profoundly corrupt country

                                I say "most people are selfish and inconsiderate tossers"

                                What is the difference, we are saying the same thing yes ?
                                The difference is subtle in that selfishness and tosserism are not illegal. But I think we share the same sentiment for sure.
                                There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and Tory corruption and I am not sure about the universe.
                                With apologies to Albert Einstein.

                                Comment

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