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  1. #6961
    Nicotine, valium, vicodin... notdeadyet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    Starmer is the UK's Biden. The real problem (once Alexander has gone back to playing tennis with the Russians) is the country is so fucked that the incoming Labour government will spend five years getting back to where we were before the halfwit Cameron and then be booted out of office for overspending with some other Tory shit taking over. Still there are real people - with jobs and everything - so stupid they really think Corbyn would have "bankrupted" the country. Come to that there are Civil Servants that will still vote for the party that wants to put them on the dole. As the yanks say "you can't fix stupid".
    There are also people with jobs and everything that think Corbyn is some sort of missed messiah. I don't think Corbyn would have bankrupted the country. I just don't think he would have been a good leader or good for the country. As the US is proving, just not being the other guy isn't enough.

    It's a shame we can't have people who act as government is supposed to do: manage the country on the behalf of the people. Instead we get morons who either want to line their own pockets on the right or put dogma over everything else on the left.
    Caliph Hamish Aw-Michty Ay-Ya-Bastard, Spiritual leader of Scottish State in England

  2. #6962
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notdeadyet View Post
    There are also people with jobs and everything that think Corbyn is some sort of missed messiah. ...
    Yes, there are idiots on both sides of the equation. The manifesto was really the thing, not the leader. Whilst it (manifesto) was very popular the leader was not. The chance to bring about change was 2017 and it was missed by the political equivalent of a Rizzla paper. The Labour right said they would have won with Starmer, but when he (Starmer) got the job he still polled behind the liar-in-chief.

    Quote Originally Posted by notdeadyet View Post
    It's a shame we can't have people who act as government is supposed to do: manage the country on the behalf of the people. Instead we get morons who either want to line their own pockets on the right or put dogma over everything else on the left.
    It is a novel thought but seems unlikely. The Tories exist to make the wealthy even more so and the Labour party is supposed to represent the working person. (Formally known as working man). Clearly the rich can fund the Tories enough to make them the default choice for the hard of thinking and keep the rich rich. For any party trying to look after the working person the last 50 years have made that an all but impossible task. We make stuff in China and the way to get ahead in life is to be a YouTube influencer. That leaves millions of people more or less unemployable at anything more than poverty wages.

    At risk of repeating myself perhaps the time really has come to look at UBI?
    We give 350m a week to the EU. Let's give it to Dido Harding instead.

  3. #6963
    Established TDF Member jamesp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    Yes, there are idiots on both sides of the equation. The manifesto was really the thing, not the leader. Whilst it (manifesto) was very popular the leader was not. The chance to bring about change was 2017 and it was missed by the political equivalent of a Rizzla paper. The Labour right said they would have won with Starmer, but when he (Starmer) got the job he still polled behind the liar-in-chief.



    It is a novel thought but seems unlikely. The Tories exist to make the wealthy even more so and the Labour party is supposed to represent the working person. (Formally known as working man). Clearly the rich can fund the Tories enough to make them the default choice for the hard of thinking and keep the rich rich. For any party trying to look after the working person the last 50 years have made that an all but impossible task. We make stuff in China and the way to get ahead in life is to be a YouTube influencer. That leaves millions of people more or less unemployable at anything more than poverty wages.

    At risk of repeating myself perhaps the time really has come to look at UBI?

    I think we just had that experiment with the furlough scheme, ended up with a lot of people happy to stay at home, not interested in returning back to work, and my daughters grand children, will still be paying for it.

  4. #6964
    Nicotine, valium, vicodin... notdeadyet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    Labour party is supposed to represent the working person. (Formally known as working man).
    Labour need to look at who the "working person" is. All the Labour voters that I know who consider themselves "working class" are very far from it. It would seem most people either seem to fall into working poor or lower middle class. The bit in between vanished long ago.


    At risk of repeating myself perhaps the time really has come to look at UBI?
    UBI sounds a great idea in theory but I've never really seen a believable explanation of how you stop inflation just eroding all the benefits of it. If everyone has the same guaranteed minimum income then a free market is just going to rebalance itself to suit that and you end up back where you were with a big chunk of society unable to afford anything and a big chunk able to afford excess. I can't see it working without very strict price controls on everything from rent toi food to fuel, which means crashing the value of the pound.
    Caliph Hamish Aw-Michty Ay-Ya-Bastard, Spiritual leader of Scottish State in England

  5. #6965
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesp View Post
    I think we just had that experiment with the furlough scheme, ended up with a lot of people happy to stay at home, not interested in returning back to work, and my daughters grand children, will still be paying for it.
    Your daughter will not have grandchildren. Climate change will put paid to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by notdeadyet View Post
    Labour need to look at who the "working person" is. All the Labour voters that I know who consider themselves "working class" are very far from it. It would seem most people either seem to fall into working poor or lower middle class. The bit in between vanished long ago.
    Yeah, I pretty much agree, but it is an issue for all of us not just one political party. What the Tories seem (to me at least) to have destroyed is social mobility. Blair can cop for some of it too as he promoted HE but was not willing to fund it. Younger people tend to fall into working poor due to house prices and the "middle" (of what?) tend to go up the ladder with buy to let property (thus pushing down even further the poor).


    Quote Originally Posted by notdeadyet View Post
    UBI sounds a great idea in theory but I've never really seen a believable explanation of how you stop inflation just eroding all the benefits of it. If everyone has the same guaranteed minimum income then a free market is just going to rebalance itself to suit that and you end up back where you were with a big chunk of society unable to afford anything and a big chunk able to afford excess. I can't see it working without very strict price controls on everything from rent toi food to fuel, which means crashing the value of the pound.
    The thing that needs price controls is rent. Again I think you are not far off right in your analysis but (IMHO) rent controls would provide the 'brake' that you deem required. The problem then becomes the petty landlord class that will vote against it (as per above) and tend to be Tory voters/Telegraph readers as a sweeping generalisation. So you are pitting one group of "workers" against another, the latter joining the rentier classes in the need to extract so much disposable income that the working poor can never escape the situation.
    We give 350m a week to the EU. Let's give it to Dido Harding instead.

  6. #6966
    Nicotine, valium, vicodin... notdeadyet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisch View Post
    The thing that needs price controls is rent. Again I think you are not far off right in your analysis but (IMHO) rent controls would provide the 'brake' that you deem required. The problem then becomes the petty landlord class that will vote against it (as per above) and tend to be Tory voters/Telegraph readers as a sweeping generalisation. So you are pitting one group of "workers" against another, the latter joining the rentier classes in the need to extract so much disposable income that the working poor can never escape the situation.
    I totally agree rent control is required. But it isn't necessarily the "landlord class" that is driving it. There was a time when it was someone doing well either bought a house and did it up or inherited one and rented it out. Now REIT's and investment funds are driving it, especially in cities. They are huge funders of new, mainly rental, developments and destroying cities, and city centres especially, for everyone. I don't have many ethics but REITs are one thing I wouldn't touch with a barge pole. They are scum and absolutely need reined in.

    Berlin recently voted to ban them from the city. It wasn't binding but clearly sent a message to whoever is in local government that something needs to be done or it's them who will pay the price at the next election. Here we are still at the stage of people thinking they'll make a bit of cash out of renting granny's old house so any regulation will be voted down. But as with most things, it's not the little guy that is the problem but the powers that be will sure as hell make him think he is.
    Last edited by notdeadyet; 06-06-2022 at 02:17 PM.
    Caliph Hamish Aw-Michty Ay-Ya-Bastard, Spiritual leader of Scottish State in England

  7. #6967
    Established TDF Member Energy58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notdeadyet View Post
    Labour need to look at who the "working person" is. All the Labour voters that I know who consider themselves "working class" are very far from it. It would seem most people either seem to fall into working poor or lower middle class. The bit in between vanished long ago.
    This is a world wide phenomenon - in the US in 2015 90% of people met at least one of 12 definitions of "middle class" and 34% of survey respondents with an income below $30k self-identified as middle class! Only 6% of those earning $100k or more identified as upper class in the same survey so it seems that we are all middle class except a few plutocrats and a very small slice of the population in extreme poverty. On that basis building your plans for world domination on attracting the support of either the lumpenproletariat or the plutocrats is probably a bit of a non-starter these days!

  8. #6968
    Established TDF Member Chrisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Energy58 View Post
    This is a world wide phenomenon - in the US in 2015 90% of people met at least one of 12 definitions of "middle class" and 34% of survey respondents with an income below $30k self-identified as middle class! Only 6% of those earning $100k or more identified as upper class in the same survey so it seems that we are all middle class except a few plutocrats and a very small slice of the population in extreme poverty. On that basis building your plans for world domination on attracting the support of either the lumpenproletariat or the plutocrats is probably a bit of a non-starter these days!
    Agreed. The world's problems are global and the bullshit that caused them is also global. The political right are now a global force backed by the likes of Koch and Banon - the climate change deniers. It is hard to see an end to it. The next few years will be kill or cure I think.
    We give 350m a week to the EU. Let's give it to Dido Harding instead.

  9. #6969
    Established TDF Member jamesp's Avatar
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  10. #6970
    Nicotine, valium, vicodin... notdeadyet's Avatar
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    "Britain has not signed the 2001 Unesco treaty that forbids the exploitation of underwater wrecks for commercial gain."

    Well there's a shock
    Caliph Hamish Aw-Michty Ay-Ya-Bastard, Spiritual leader of Scottish State in England


 

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