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Kato
03-03-2014, 09:40 AM
Ok guys I realise its not Friday & I'm not looking to start a ruck.

I've just replaced my twin set regs (the first & 2nd stages I used on my main & pony cylinder) with something designed for the job.

Its the Apex tek 3 twin set package.
A TEK SET is also available which comprises 2 x TEK3 1st stages, 2 x XTX50 2nd stages, 1 x 2.1 mtr hose and 1 x 1 mtr hose, and a regulator necklace.
http://www.apeks.co.uk/products/product_cats_results.asp?Product=TEK3

Now the question. Has anyone got a picture or any advice how best to rig the regs & I've never dived the long hose route way before.

I realise my old kit set up worked fine, but decided I'd had enough swapping hoses & blanking plugs for each set up.

Big Matt
03-03-2014, 09:47 AM
are you planning to primary donate?

Mark Chase
03-03-2014, 09:53 AM
Ok guys I realise its not Friday & I'm not looking to start a ruck.

I've just replaced my twin set regs (the first & 2nd stages I used on my main & pony cylinder) with something designed for the job.

Its the Apex tek 3 twin set package.
A TEK SET is also available which comprises 2 x TEK3 1st stages, 2 x XTX50 2nd stages, 1 x 2.1 mtr hose and 1 x 1 mtr hose, and a regulator necklace.
http://www.apeks.co.uk/products/product_cats_results.asp?Product=TEK3

Now the question. Has anyone got a picture or any advice how best to rig the regs & I've never dived the long hose route way before.

I realise my old kit set up worked fine, but decided I'd had enough swapping hoses & blanking plugs for each set up.


Remember its not just about rigging it, its being able to use it


If you dive all tanks left then its simple enough to mount your torch canister on the right hip on the waste belt and run the long hose under the light can over your left sholder and arround your neck into your mouth


The back up reg is on a bungee arround your neck

The important bit is lerning to donate in this way without getting in a mess, ripping the reg out of your OOA buddies mouth, ripping your own mask off, or tangling with your umbilical torch

Do lots of practice before you dive it thinking its safe and if you cant figure it out for your self then get somone like Garf to teach you on one of his one day events.


If like me you dive deco tanks left and right, it becomes slightly more complicated. Personaly I would tuck the long hose in my belt but it can fall out which is anoying. There are various ways of stuffing a long hose but most are out of fashion thease days dispite the fact they work just fine.

TDIs way


My old way (long hose stuffed in bungee loops on my wing

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/MarkChase/WingX4-1.jpg


ATB

Mark

Steve Clark
03-03-2014, 11:06 AM
I'd echo what the others have said above. If you're going to use the long hose for primary donation, get someone to show you how to do it correctly.

IMHO, the 'DIR/GUE' configuration of regs & hoses has become pretty standard across various OC technical agencies and there isn't really any reason to go for something different unless you have a good reason to (like a BSAC course!). There is some supporting logic to the location of each hose. Other configurations are possible.

(For clarity, the right post/valve is the one you can reach with your right hand. It's the one on the left of this photo)

http://www.steveclark.demon.co.uk/ds4.jpg

The right post is your primary regulator. It feeds your primary long hose and your wing inflate.

Logic for primary this side : If you are donating to a diver swimming in front of you, the post won't roll shut when it rubs on an overhead, leaving them with no gas stuck in a restricted space.
Logic for wing inflate this side : You are very unlikely to jump off a boat with you primary reg turned off, therefore you always have a working wing inflate when you jump in the sea. Also, the hose is effectively long enough to reach your suit inflate if you need it to. Good idea to have the same fitting on both.

The left post is your backup regulator. It feeds your necklace-mounted backup regulator & suit inflate. Your SPG is on this side too. There is a neat way to route the backup reg hose beneath the corruagted hose, reducing strain on the hose. See pic above.

Logic for backup : It's on a different side to your primary, and is the whole point of redundancy.
Logic for drysuit inflate : It's on a different side to your wing buoyancy and can be interchanged with your wing inflate (or use oral inflate). It also maintains side when you switch to a suit inflate bottle.
Logic for SPG : It's more useful as a diagnostic tool on this side. If your isolator is closed the gauge will not move during a normal dive. Clue to check the isolator.

Steve

Kato
03-03-2014, 12:53 PM
Cheers guys, as with any changes to my kit set up it will involve several hours of bottom time in the local quarries before I'm happy to risk it in the sea.

Wilbo
03-03-2014, 12:59 PM
Follow this for configuration:
http://dir-diver.com/en/equipment/reg_config_doubles.html

Get some to show you how to use them. Please.

Ian_6301
03-03-2014, 02:26 PM
I'd echo what the others have said above. If you're going to use the long hose for primary donation, get someone to show you how to do it correctly.

IMHO, the 'DIR/GUE' configuration of regs & hoses has become pretty standard across various OC technical agencies and there isn't really any reason to go for something different unless you have a good reason to (like a BSAC course!).

Sorry, thought you said a good reason...?

BTS
03-03-2014, 02:50 PM
I am always amused and bemused about the fact people consider primary donate/Hog loop to be so difficult that instruction is required...

Don't trap the long hose under anything, donb't try to breathe when it is out of your mouth...

Done...

The link in Wilbos post is the most straight forward rigging guide I ever found, follow it to the letter, it is clean and simple...

The big advantage of the Tec 3 is that all the hoses will route down, they do what they were designed for very well...

SonicStomp
03-03-2014, 02:56 PM
I am always amused and bemused about the fact people consider primary donate/Hog loop to be so difficult that instruction is required...

Don't trap the long hose under anything, donb't try to breathe when it is out of your mouth...

Done...

The link in Wilbos post is the most straight forward rigging guide I ever found, follow it to the letter, it is clean and simple...

The big advantage of the Tec 3 is that all the hoses will route down, they do what they were designed for very well...

Maybe I am a biff but I needed some good instruction and lots of practice to be slick with OOG drills - I guess the operative word is 'slick' while maintaining a solid platform....

dwhitlow
03-03-2014, 03:03 PM
Maybe I am a biff but I needed some good instruction and lots of practice to be slick with OOG drills - I guess the operative word is 'slick' while maintaining a solid platform....
With HL/PD the tricky part is not snagging the hose on snorkle and dislodging the mask :angel::giggle:

MarkP
03-03-2014, 03:22 PM
I agree with BTS; well, there had to be a first time...

The use of the long hose is so simple that it's learnable in a few minutes of internet doings. If it's too complicated perhaps diving's not for you.

I think I did fundies and T1 in 2003 or thereabouts. I wasn't taught anything new about the long hose, its rigging and deployment, except for how to do it in a team environment. It's far and away the best way I've yet found to get an OOG diver breathing happily, regardless of their affiliation.

I'm not convinced you'll gain much from several hours of bottom time in a quarry* unless you're under instruction from somebody who has far greater knowledge than you. That's where you discover all the little things that make it all even slicker and easier.

*I have a near pathological hatred of quarry diving. I've not dived in a quarry for fun since 1996.

Steve Clark
03-03-2014, 03:28 PM
With HL/PD the tricky part is not snagging the hose on snorkle and dislodging the mask :angel::giggle:

With HL/PD the tricky part is not breathing off the snorkel thinking it's the backup reg :think:

dwhitlow
03-03-2014, 03:34 PM
With HL/PD the tricky part is not breathing off the snorkel thinking it's the backup reg :think:
:doh: Hadn't thought of that. I guess it would also get in the way when you come off the loop to donate the long hose. :sweat: This PD game is looking pretty tricky now. Maybe a course is needed after all! :grin: :rofl:

SonicStomp
03-03-2014, 04:28 PM
I'm obviously shit at diving. I was taught long-hose on my TDI course but needed Fundies to become proficient with it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

MikeF
03-03-2014, 04:46 PM
that's life, I guess some kids work out how to use a spoon pretty quick on their own and others need a little more coaching...

PS I'm so shit I still haven't really ever seen a need for it in open water. (and it's not even friday)

SonicStomp
03-03-2014, 05:59 PM
I might be shit at it but at least I can see the benefit :-)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

rongoodman
03-03-2014, 06:28 PM
With HL/PD the tricky part is not snagging the hose on snorkle and dislodging the mask :angel::giggle:

Snagging the hose on the what??

BTS
03-03-2014, 06:34 PM
Snagging the hose on the what??

Yeah Dave, it is spelt snorkel you dummy...

dwhitlow
03-03-2014, 06:41 PM
Snagging the hose on the what??
I wondered how long it would be before someone spotted that :)

dwhitlow
03-03-2014, 06:42 PM
Yeah Dave, it is spelt snorkel you dummy...
:p

I saw it after I posted and coundn't be bothered correcting it and depriving someone the satisfaction of pointing it out.

Paulo
03-03-2014, 06:51 PM
:p

I saw it after I posted and coundn't be bothered correcting it and depriving someone the satisfaction of pointing it out.

http://www.humorodd.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/67554063130774500_vD5uEiv7_c.jpg

BTS
03-03-2014, 06:53 PM
I inverted my snorkel, I found that helped...

Paulo
03-03-2014, 06:56 PM
I inverted my snorkel, I found that helped...

So now you have an inney?

Mark Chase
03-03-2014, 09:32 PM
Snagging the hose on the what??


FIrst time I tried it I riped my own mask off snagging on my mask mounted torch Clare was very amused

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/MarkChase/0a511e6f.jpg


In 2009 on a cave course I was donated a long hose and then as my buddy pulled the rest of the long hose free he managed to rip the reg out of my mouth and out of the mouthpiece as I tried desperatly to hang on to it.


It would be easy to dismiss this as two numptie divers screwing up but in truth neither of us were numpties and dispite haveing practiced it every day for the week prior to the event, we screwed up.


Long hose primory donate is not idiot proof :D

ATB

Mark



.

BTS
04-03-2014, 09:00 AM
It would be easy to dismiss this as two numptie divers screwing up but in truth neither of us were numpties and dispite haveing practiced it every day for the week prior to the event, we screwed up.


Long hose primory donate is not idiot proof :D

ATB

Mark



.


All fair comment but people also crash cars every day and that is after passing a test ;)

rongoodman
05-03-2014, 04:05 PM
I wondered how long it would be before someone spotted that :)

I wasn't commenting on the spelling...

BTS
05-03-2014, 05:34 PM
I wasn't commenting on the spelling...

Do you not use a snorkel Ron?

ah, just noticed you are from the US of A, wouldn't surprise me if you don't... crazy ass bunch of risk takers the yanks...

rongoodman
05-03-2014, 07:51 PM
Do you not use a snorkel Ron?

ah, just noticed you are from the US of A, wouldn't surprise me if you don't... crazy ass bunch of risk takers the yanks...

Never had one on outside of a PADI class.

AMW
05-03-2014, 08:50 PM
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y184/AMWard/wing.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y184/AMWard/DCP_0027-1.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y184/AMWard/DCP_0028.jpg

BTS
05-03-2014, 08:52 PM
Never had one on outside of a PADI class.

Well. Dont come running to.me when you lose the use of your legs

dwhitlow
05-03-2014, 09:10 PM
Well. Dont come running to.me when you lose the use of your legs
or crawling... :sweat:

Paul H
06-03-2014, 06:04 AM
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y184/AMWard/wing.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y184/AMWard/DCP_0027-1.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y184/AMWard/DCP_0028.jpg

No long hose?

I'm guessing that's a not how to do it post?

Lofty
06-03-2014, 02:51 PM
No long hose?

I'm guessing that's a not how to do it post?

I hope so! Ha

AMW
06-03-2014, 08:48 PM
No long hose?

I'm guessing that's a not how to do it post?

Yep why would you want to compromise your own safety by giving gas away you may need :devil:

Although you could imagine one hose being longer if that helps :rofl:

Andrew

GT Destroyer
15-07-2014, 07:37 PM
Ok guys I realise its not Friday & I'm not looking to start a ruck.

I've just replaced my twin set regs (the first & 2nd stages I used on my main & pony cylinder) with something designed for the job.

Its the Apex tek 3 twin set package.
A TEK SET is also available which comprises 2 x TEK3 1st stages, 2 x XTX50 2nd stages, 1 x 2.1 mtr hose and 1 x 1 mtr hose, and a regulator necklace.
http://www.apeks.co.uk/products/product_cats_results.asp?Product=TEK3

Now the question. Has anyone got a picture or any advice how best to rig the regs & I've never dived the long hose route way before.

I realise my old kit set up worked fine, but decided I'd had enough swapping hoses & blanking plugs for each set up.

Hi.

How are you getting on with your TEC3 package Kato?

jturner
16-07-2014, 09:44 AM
Hi.

How are you getting on with your TEC3 package Kato?

I have just found the thread - MrsT's twinset is setup using these regs (except for the long secondary hose). I can send you a photo if you like.

Kato
16-07-2014, 02:01 PM
The regs are great. very happy with them

BARDO
10-08-2014, 05:10 PM
I have TEK3s on my twinset - they are superb! They're specifically design for twinset use so the hose routing is sublime. Combined with a set of XTX second stages, you've got perhaps the best twinset regs on the market :-)

matt
11-08-2014, 08:49 AM
As I dived mine with the dry-suit as primary I ran my wing-feed from the left and the suit from the right. I also refused to dive with a cannister-battery on my belt (so as such am excluded from GUE training). I found a simple reel worked good enough to hold the hose - but it's not critical, just pull it tight.

Matt.

PBrown
11-08-2014, 10:10 AM
I also refused to dive with a cannister-battery on my belt (so as such am excluded from GUE training).

No your not.

Page 86, point 5
http://www.globalunderwaterexplorers.org/files/Standards_and_Procedures/GUE-Standards-v7.2.pdf

It may be accurate to say you are excluding yourself from some GUE training.

cheers,
Paul

matt
11-08-2014, 10:32 AM
This? What about the last point? It looks like it says I will put the battery-pack on my belt and not on my wing - no?

Also - I am left handed, so right-hip is a no for me.

Matt.



5. Underwater lights:
 Where required, back-up lights should be powered by alkaline batteries (not
rechargeable) and stowed on the d-rings at a diver’s chest.
 Reserve lights should have a minimal amount of protrusions and a single attachment
at its rear.
 The primary light should consist of a rechargeable battery pack and be fitted with a
Goodman-style light handle.
 Where burn time requirements create the need for an external battery pack, it
should reside in a canister mounted to the diver’s right hip.



No your not.

Page 86, point 5
http://www.globalunderwaterexplorers.org/files/Standards_and_Procedures/GUE-Standards-v7.2.pdf

It may be accurate to say you are excluding yourself from some GUE training.

cheers,
Paul

andystev
11-08-2014, 11:15 AM
[...]Also - I am left handed, so right-hip is a no for me.

Why is that an issue? I'm left handed too, never had an problem with it being on my right hip, it just sits there, being a battery.

PBrown
11-08-2014, 11:17 AM
This? What about the last point? It looks like it says I will put the battery-pack on my belt and not on my wing - no?

Correct, which is why I said:

It may be accurate to say you are excluding yourself from some GUE training.

It is only an issue if your primary light doesn't have enough burntime and requires an external battery pack.


Also - I am left handed, so right-hip is a no for me.

Sorry, not sure I see the relevance?

cheers,
Paul

Badger
11-08-2014, 12:50 PM
This? What about the last point? It looks like it says I will put the battery-pack on my belt and not on my wing - no?

Also - I am left handed, so right-hip is a no for me.

Matt.

Matt,

when you are on OC what hand do you donate gas with?

Garf
11-08-2014, 01:41 PM
No your not.

Page 86, point 5
http://www.globalunderwaterexplorers.org/files/Standards_and_Procedures/GUE-Standards-v7.2.pdf

It may be accurate to say you are excluding yourself from some GUE training.

cheers,
Paul

Actually, he's just decided to exclude himself from GUE Training. Anyone that refuses to adhere to the training standards of a given organisation obviously cannot undertake training with that organisation. How many agencies would teach and qualify rebreather MOD1 to people who refuse to use a rebreather on the course?

Woz
11-08-2014, 01:57 PM
[CAN O WORMS]
Bungee it and go and learn BSAC stylee
[/CAN O WORMS]

CraigofScotland
11-08-2014, 02:30 PM
[CAN O WORMS]
Bungee it and go and learn BSAC stylee
[/CAN O WORMS]


*non troll* what is the bsac bungee method? Bungeed to the cylinder?

Woz
11-08-2014, 02:38 PM
*non troll* what is the bsac bungee method? Bungeed to the cylinder?

There isn't one. The most common I've seen is the long hose bungeed to the cylinder. Snoopy loops work better than bungee as the bungee tends to roll and the loops pop out from stowage. Miflex hoses are particularly prone to popping out as they don't grip as well as rubber. Same reason why I prefer rubber if you're hoglooping the long hose.

If your wing has bungees or external loops that works very well. I used to do that with my 45LB OMS wing down the non-bungee fabric loops you get on that wing. Have a couple of mates with Red Hat wings and stowing the long hose on the wing bungees works well there too.

Second stage gets stowed using whatever your preferred clip is. Seems to be a few using the magnetic type ones- I'm not massively keen as everyone I've seen with one of these ends up with a reg trailing behind them! I prefer either a simple hose clamp type one carefully selected so it's strong enough to grip but weak enough to pull free, or those holders that look like a rectangle with a rubber band hanging off them. Or a bungee necklace (similar sort of thing).

Best place for a canister light I've found is upside down on the left side of the backplate. Switch is easy to reach, you don't have to mess around working out what to do with the cord when donating the long hose and restowing if you're hoglooping. You can't change battery packs of course but then I've never needed to as my suit heater pack is on a separate battery pack and a 9Ah battery lasts plenty long enough for me for a weekend's diving. And before anyone asks, my long hose gets stuck under a knife on the waist strap instead of the canister.

CraigofScotland
11-08-2014, 02:47 PM
There isn't one. The most common I've seen is the long hose bungeed to the cylinder. Snoopy loops work better than bungee as the bungee tends to roll and the loops pop out from stowage. Miflex hoses are particularly prone to popping out as they don't grip as well as rubber. Same reason why I prefer rubber if you're hoglooping the long hose.

If your wing has bungees or external loops that works very well. I used to do that with my 45LB OMS wing down the non-bungee fabric loops you get on that wing. Have a couple of mates with Red Hat wings and stowing the long hose on the wing bungees works well there too.

Second stage gets stowed using whatever your preferred clip is. Seems to be a few using the magnetic type ones- I'm not massively keen as everyone I've seen with one of these ends up with a reg trailing behind them! I prefer either a simple hose clamp type one carefully selected so it's strong enough to grip but weak enough to pull free, or those holders that look like a rectangle with a rubber band hanging off them. Or a bungee necklace (similar sort of thing).

Best place for a canister light I've found is upside down on the left side of the backplate. Switch is easy to reach, you don't have to mess around working out what to do with the cord when donating the long hose and restowing if you're hoglooping. You can't change battery packs of course but then I've never needed to as my suit heater pack is on a separate battery pack and a 9Ah battery lasts plenty long enough for me for a weekend's diving. And before anyone asks, my long hose gets stuck under a knife on the waist strap instead of the canister.

Cheers Woz. Plenty in my club (SAA) rig long hoses similarly, was just intrigued to see what was what in bsac.

My battery is tank mounted because metalsub dont like waistbands and things apparently.

Woz
11-08-2014, 07:11 PM
Yeah those rectangular packs are good tank mounted. Pain if you have to change singles but Kent tooling do some fab brackets you can just buy half of

CraigofScotland
11-08-2014, 09:05 PM
Yeah those rectangular packs are good tank mounted. Pain if you have to change singles but Kent tooling do some fab brackets you can just buy half of

Its actually a camband mount, Like an inverted L shape. Its wierd and I wish they had stuck to the QR mounts like on some of their batteries.

Good bits of kit though. Cant fault them. Ive mine on a twinset so its not problem but singles . .ponies . .torch battery on a camband, mounts up for some in the club.

Ian_6301
12-08-2014, 08:48 AM
As I dived mine with the dry-suit as primary I ran my wing-feed from the left and the suit from the right. I also refused to dive with a cannister-battery on my belt (so as such am excluded from GUE training). I found a simple reel worked good enough to hold the hose - but it's not critical, just pull it tight.

Matt.

BURN HIM!

He is clearly a witch!

:p

matt
13-08-2014, 11:00 AM
Why is that an issue? I'm left handed too, never had an problem with it being on my right hip, it just sits there, being a battery.

You are right, I was being ridiculous. Actually I do mount the battery on the right and I use it in the right hand, so simply I am a fool :-)


Matt,

when you are on OC what hand do you donate gas with?

I'd use my right hand. The hose comes over my right shoulder and would be upside down otherwise.


Actually, he's just decided to exclude himself from GUE Training.

Did I? I simply took my existing kit and asked if it would be OK and was told no. When I asked the reason the answer I got was that my torch battery would need to be hip mounted. Fine - what's the reason for this? So I can reach a switch that does not exist?


Anyone that refuses to adhere to the training standards of a given organisation obviously cannot undertake training with that organisation. How many agencies would teach and qualify rebreather MOD1 to people who refuse to use a rebreather on the course?

I'm not asking to take an OC course (even the junior one) with a rebreather. That would be madness. I took all my courses to-date with my current torch and it was fine, it still is. It's a torch, for lighting the wreck or reef. I'm not in a cave or down a hole, I'm just tootling about looking a brass and fish.

Perhaps I'm just being obtuse. I actually I like many of the GUE/DIR ideas, but some of them are a bit odd. This is one of them. Just my opinion - luckily you do not need to do the course to use the ideas!

Cheers
Matt.

Badger
13-08-2014, 11:15 AM
You are right, I was being ridiculous. Actually I do mount the battery on the right and I use it in the right hand, so simply I am a fool :-)



I'd use my right hand. The hose comes over my right shoulder and would be upside down otherwise.



Did I? I simply took my existing kit and asked if it would be OK and was told no. When I asked the reason the answer I got was that my torch battery would need to be hip mounted. Fine - what's the reason for this? So I can reach a switch that does not exist?



I'm not asking to take an OC course (even the junior one) with a rebreather. That would be madness. I took all my courses to-date with my current torch and it was fine, it still is. It's a torch, for lighting the wreck or reef. I'm not in a cave or down a hole, I'm just tootling about looking a brass and fish.

Perhaps I'm just being obtuse. I actually I like many of the GUE/DIR ideas, but some of them are a bit odd. This is one of them. Just my opinion - luckily you do not need to do the course to use the ideas!

Cheers
Matt.
Fair enough but a piecemeal approach to a system generally does lead to where you are now.

Look at this particular system as a 'top down' approach. With the primary goal not to roll off a regulator that a OOG buddy is breathing from and stages on your left, the right hip is the least bad of the two options that a common consensus can be reached on. The torch head on your left hand just reduces the chances of blinding an OOG buddy when you donate gas.

matt
13-08-2014, 11:18 AM
Fair enough but a piecemeal approach to a system generally does lead to where you are now.

Look at this particular system as a 'top down' approach. With the primary goal not to roll off a regulator that a OOG buddy is breathing from and stages on your left, the right hip is the least bad of the two options that a common consensus can be reached on. The torch head on your left hand just reduces the chances of blinding an OOG buddy when you donate gas.

Don't disagree. But what the issue with putting the battery in the suicide-pocket on the wing - also on the right side, so no issue there? I use the torch in both hands as I never stick my computer arm (left) into the mud when rooting about!

Matt.

Badger
13-08-2014, 11:56 AM
I haven't seen a torch attached to a wing so can't comment. Again the context of placement or configuration is as part of a system designed to support those procedures. If you don't use the procedures the context of where and how to place or configure a piece of equipment is diminished or lost. That makes your choice neither inferior or a GUE choice superior.

Iain Smith
13-08-2014, 12:18 PM
Don't disagree. But what the issue with putting the battery in the suicide-pocket on the wing - also on the right side, so no issue there? I use the torch in both hands as I never stick my computer arm (left) into the mud when rooting about!

I'm guessing you have a AP Valves wing which you've removed the inflation bottle from?
I don't see an immediate problem arising from fitting a battery pack there, provided it's secured so that it can't fall out (as I guess yours will be).
It's not going to help you to stow your long hose, but a knife or belt-pouch can do that instead (so maybe it's a marginally less elegant solution).

Have you actually spoken to a GUE instructor about whether this would prevent you training with them? Alternatively, if you wanted GUE training, it surely wouldn't kill you to attach a length of webbing with a couple of jubilee clips in order to meet the defined standard? Even if you took them straight off after the course...

Just a thought

Iain

Badger
13-08-2014, 12:34 PM
Just to recap standards, an umbilical is not required. My new primary doesn't.

Garf
13-08-2014, 01:07 PM
Did I? I simply took my existing kit and asked if it would be OK and was told no. When I asked the reason the answer I got was that my torch battery would need to be hip mounted. Fine - what's the reason for this? So I can reach a switch that does not exist?

I'm long past arguing the details of the standard on the internet. There's no right or wrong, and no best way to configure each individual element. The benefit of the standard is in having the standard, not in the details of that standard. It's a compromise, with the benefit coming from everyone doing the same thing. That being said, I'm pretty confident that if there was something truly stupid or dangerous in the standard then someone might have spotted it by now.

If people want to try GUE training, then they adopt the standard. If they don't want to do that, then they are free to train with someone else. The equipment is a 15 minute discussion on a four day course, and people who come to fundies wanting everything successfully debated against their chosen configuration with them usually end up failing because they are focussing on things that will not help them. People that just go with it, and then take what they want from the course and the configuration at the end, tend to end up passing.

You've excluded yourself from GUE training if you are not prepared to adopt the standard, in exactly the same way that telling people you refuse to dive a rebreather would exclude you from a rebreather course. That being said, the standards are not as onerous as people assume for training, as Badger has pointed out.

dominich
13-08-2014, 03:26 PM
Does the fundies course require your kit to be DIR-configured now? I swear I remember people being told they could do DIR-F with a stab jacket if that was all they had, but I appreciate I'm a few years out of touch..

Badger
13-08-2014, 04:21 PM
Does the fundies course require your kit to be DIR-configured now? I swear I remember people being told they could do DIR-F with a stab jacket if that was all they had, but I appreciate I'm a few years out of touch..
No. Single or double backplate and wing. I think you have a wire crossed :)

dominich
13-08-2014, 04:30 PM
Entirely possible :)

MarkP
13-08-2014, 04:46 PM
What depresses me is that, despite the efforts of Gloc, Garf, Badger et al, any discussion of GUE degenrates into a kit discussion.

GUE courses are about teamwork and skills, IIRC (a decade or so since Tec 1), and precious little else.

But it always comes down to kit.

Steve Clark
13-08-2014, 05:39 PM
Does the fundies course require your kit to be DIR-configured now? I swear I remember people being told they could do DIR-F with a stab jacket if that was all they had, but I appreciate I'm a few years out of touch..

There have been lots of DIR/GUE experience days and workshop type events, where people have been welcomed along to see what it's all about. For this kind of thing, any safe kit is normally fine and this may have been what you have heard.

For courses, the kit needs to be compliant with the standards. This isn't some kind of clone/cult thing, it exists to make the whole thing work very efficiently. Kit gets sorted on day 1, and doesn't change from there. Stuff gets added on the tech & cave courses but the fundamental stuff stays the same. Despite what people have ranted about on the internet for the last decade, GUE kit is not the best solution for every type of dive. It's a compromise to allow consistency across all types of dive. You need to embrace it entirely to see the advantage, else it's not worth bothering with. You could make something up to suit your personal preferences that would probably be a better solution for the particular type of diving you do.

However, don't see changing kit as a obstacle to doing a GUE course, there are loads of options to borrow kit. I did fundies with a guy who was wearing a borrowed drysuit, light and twinset for the first time and got a recreational pass. He's now a GUE instructor intern.

Steve

jacko
13-08-2014, 10:26 PM
Why does left post feed wing and right post feed dry suit?

Garf
13-08-2014, 10:35 PM
Why does left post feed wing and right post feed dry suit?

It doesn't. The right post feeds the primary buoyancy (the wing) and the primary regulator.

dwhitlow
13-08-2014, 10:37 PM
Why does left post feed wing and right post feed dry suit?
Whilst not exactly how I dive now, it is my understanding that the right post feeds the wing and the left post (or dedicated bottle) feeds the drysuit. I understand the reason behind this is that contact with an overhead is unlikely to turn the right valve off and therefore this is primary gas and buoyancy.

Dammyla
13-08-2014, 10:45 PM
I was told it was (also) so that if your wing inflate sticks on, you can dump the gas from the wing with the left hand, whilst shutting down the right post with the right hand

dwhitlow
13-08-2014, 10:49 PM
I was told it was (also) so that if your wing inflate sticks on, you can dump the gas from the wing with the left hand, whilst shutting down the right post with the right hand
but you are shutting down the post you are breathing from. Is it not better to disconnect the wing? (and maintain it better to avoid the problem)

btw, what was this thread about?

notdeadyet
13-08-2014, 11:09 PM
I was told it was (also) so that if your wing inflate sticks on, you can dump the gas from the wing with the left hand, whilst shutting down the right post with the right hand

There have been many explanations over the years. In the days of Techdiver GI3 gave various reasons:

- that if you donate your primary and your backup isnt working then you can breathe off the inflator

- having the hoses cross behind your neck means you are more likely to hear any problems with the hoses

I suspect it was "just because". If I was cynical I'd suspect that a normal length inflator hose is just the right length if you run it from the right post on a large, Florida style twinset...

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

jacko
14-08-2014, 04:53 AM
I actually meant right post to wing left to dry suit, not sure how I wrote it the wrong way.
The reason for my question was the same though so thanks for answering

Badger
14-08-2014, 07:07 AM
but you are shutting down the post you are breathing from. Is it not better to disconnect the wing? (and maintain it better to avoid the problem)

btw, what was this thread about?
It just depends how much gas is in the wing. Shutting down and rear dumping may not be too easy if you are swimming up a slope when Murphy strikes.

dwhitlow
14-08-2014, 08:23 AM
It just depends how much gas is in the wing. Shutting down and rear dumping may not be too easy if you are swimming up a slope when Murphy strikes.
Fair point and, similarly, along if going up a slope, or in open water, then dumping from hose and disconnecting could be achieved too... or would you still recommend the pillar shutdown?

A case where the thinking diver needs to make the best decision at the time :)

Badger
14-08-2014, 08:33 AM
Fair point and, similarly, along if going up a slope, or in open water, then dumping from hose and disconnecting could be achieved too... or would you still recommend the pillar shutdown?

A case where the thinking diver needs to make the best decision at the time :)
Agree

Steve Clark
14-08-2014, 08:34 AM
but you are shutting down the post you are breathing from. Is it not better to disconnect the wing? (and maintain it better to avoid the problem)

btw, what was this thread about?

If you want to know the logic from the boss, there is an article in Quest 8.3 'Runaway Inflator or Runaway Problem? - Jarrod Jablonski'

It documents some (un-scientific? ;) ) trials on the best option for dealing with a runaway inflator. I think the crux of the issue is about being able to swim down whilst it's all going wrong. You can shut the right post and kidney dump in this position, but disconnecting the hose is not so easy or predictable how long it will take.

If you are upright, you can dump directly from the inflator, but unless you have something to hold on to there is no way to offset your bouyancy by kicking.

Maintenance is the key, particularly with the H stainless slug valve.

Steve

dominich
14-08-2014, 08:50 AM
Another reason I've seen is: The right post, being the one you normally breathe off, is the most likely to freeflow and need to be turned off. You can inflate your wing easily enough with your mouth; you can only inflate your suit from the hose. In the event that you've turned off your right post and need to inflate the suit, you need the suit inflator to be on the left.

Not really a concern on open-water dives, admittedly.

matt
14-08-2014, 09:09 PM
Iain - this is a good balanced reply, thanks for that. I doubt very much the battery will slip out - it's a cosy fit. It is indeed an AP Wing - I didn't remove the bottle I just didn't buy one ;-)

Of course the problem is now worse than it was years ago - as the wing is now attached to a rebreather, which I understand is also problematic. My previous kit was an OMS wing (2 bladder, with bungee) and a UK800 (remember them? They are not hip mounted and don't have a Goodman handle either).

I used to hook the long hose under the reel that I fit to the waist in about the same place that I could have fitted the torch-battery.

Cheers
Matt.


I'm guessing you have a AP Valves wing which you've removed the inflation bottle from?
I don't see an immediate problem arising from fitting a battery pack there, provided it's secured so that it can't fall out (as I guess yours will be).
It's not going to help you to stow your long hose, but a knife or belt-pouch can do that instead (so maybe it's a marginally less elegant solution).

Have you actually spoken to a GUE instructor about whether this would prevent you training with them? Alternatively, if you wanted GUE training, it surely wouldn't kill you to attach a length of webbing with a couple of jubilee clips in order to meet the defined standard? Even if you took them straight off after the course...

Just a thought

Iain

matt
14-08-2014, 09:12 PM
You've excluded yourself from GUE training if you are not prepared to adopt the standard

Basically cannot disagree with that, Gareth. Only slight modification I would make is I see it the other way up. Either way, as you say, it don't matter.

Cheers
Matt.

Garf
14-08-2014, 09:35 PM
If you want to know the logic from the boss, there is an article in Quest 8.3 'Runaway Inflator or Runaway Problem? - Jarrod Jablonski'

It documents some (un-scientific? ;) ) trials on the best option for dealing with a runaway inflator. I think the crux of the issue is about being able to swim down whilst it's all going wrong. You can shut the right post and kidney dump in this position, but disconnecting the hose is not so easy or predictable how long it will take.

If you are upright, you can dump directly from the inflator, but unless you have something to hold on to there is no way to offset your bouyancy by kicking.

Maintenance is the key, particularly with the H stainless slug valve.

Steve

On Tech1 andy Kerslake used to just swim up to you and press your wing inflate at 6 metres. You learned pretty quickly that if you just dumped the wing and shut the right post simultaneously then you don't move.If you are following a lien then you just stay on it. It also removes the time pressure. There's no rush to shut it down. Once it's shut down you can switch regs and fix things at your leisure, again with no time pressure. The learning curve involved trying to disconnect it a couple of times and just not doing it quick enough to avoid drifting up towards the surface.

I know some people can dump their wing with one hand and disconnect the wing inflate at the same time with the other hand, but I never managed to achieve this with reliability so just gave up and did it the way I was taught by Andy Kerslake. I don't like procedures which require me to do things very quickly indeed as I don't trust myself to be slick enough. It's happened to me in real life at 45 metres, and was a complete non-event. shut down, dump, sort it out.

Dammyla
14-08-2014, 09:35 PM
but you are shutting down the post you are breathing from. Is it not better to disconnect the wing? (and maintain it better to avoid the problem)

btw, what was this thread about?
Perhaps. I guess it gives you options?

MattD
15-08-2014, 10:04 AM
I'm only qualified at a very basic level for overhead diving, but I really learned a lot from that course, so a bit OT but if you have the chance to do a GUE cave 1 course, (Beginner level cave) I am quite sure it will be a tremendous benefit for your wreck diving and enjoyment. Was for me at least. :) Probably the same with over cave courses too, but I only have experience from GUE.

Anyhow, if you think how the valves "Turn", the right post and left post turn on/off in different directions as the valve is reversed on the left post. then it's logical the left post is most likely to be "Rolled off" in an overhead environment. (Unless you tend to swim backwards all the time in a wreck or cave, filming for example.) Basically, in forwards motion, the friction on the roof will turn "On" the right post and "Off" the left.

In an OOA situation your team mate needs gas immediately, and primary donate from your right post ensures that the gas is working and of suitable MOD. They are safe and have gas. Your gas planning ensures there is also enough volume for you to safely and calmly abort the dive and exit/ascend.

If unknown to your good self, the backup reg has been turned off, the donor is aware of the risk of roll off and can turn the left post on quickly to get a working gas supply.

However, good awareness in a wreck or cave should dictate that you perform regular flow checks, especially if you have been in close proximity to the roof of the overhead environment, and hopefully the chance of left post roll off are reduced. At the very least your buddy who has been out of gas and is stressed can breath, and you shouldn't need more than 15 seconds to be breathing again.

I was not aware of the breathing from the wing argument, but inflating the wing manually after a right post failure is very straight forward, assuming you don't have bungees squeezing the wing. (Like the ones I had on an OMS from around 96.)

Like I said, I'm new to these concepts and ideas myself, so take my comments with a pinch of salt. The best way to learn is through a course with a good instructor. :) I am sure there are other ways to configure kit to provide a good system, but it is very nice to know that all in the team have the same setup and failure protocols.

Good luck with your diving.