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ScubaCollie
09-02-2014, 07:21 PM
Hi all, after several months considering my options for redundancy, i've decided to go twinset.

I'm going the MDE Isolation Manifold route.

I'm on a budget, and managed to get another matching Faber 12L cylinder off ebay really cheap and just had it tested and its past.

I've now picked up another Apeks DS4 1st stage, however although its DIN (as my existing), its the Turret version whereas my other isn't. Does this matter? Having one thats a Turret and the other which isn't?

Obviously it would be nice to have matching equipment on both sides, but as mentioned at the moment i'm on a budget, whereas later on i might be able to get matching equipment on both sides.

Wilbo
09-02-2014, 07:31 PM
Good luck with it..

You'll probably find someone who will be willing to swap a DS4 for your DST - as the DST, once adapted offers a better hose routing.

ScubaCollie
09-02-2014, 07:41 PM
Hi Wilbo, that would be great, hadnt thought of or realised that, I would rather swap out the dst for another ds4 as like the shorter body of the ds4 compared with the dst.

I will put a post up on the classifieds and see if there is any interest.

rivers
09-02-2014, 07:45 PM
It should be fine. I had a dst on one post and a ds4 on the other until I could afford a second ds4

MikeF
09-02-2014, 07:46 PM
either DS4 or DST is fine. no you don't need matching first stages. have fun, brace your wallet it's a slippery slope you just stepped on

hang on a minute I feel a little precognition coming on. I'll summarise the thread that stretches ahead:

- if you need a twinset you need to do fundies,
- have you thought this through what about indies?,
- no you need euro 12's and hogloop
- BSAC are wankers and wouldn't let CUUEG hogloop,
- you need two twinsets because you'll get fed up of wasting gas when the deep wreck gets blown out,
- why can't the skippers give me my money back if the weather is shite,
- if you need two twinsets you need a rebreather,
- get an ispo classic and a VR3
- JJ's the's best rebreather because GUE picked it,
- no they're just looking at it and what you really need is an inspo,
- get an OSTC,
- no get a shearwater,
- AP cells are crap,
- should I get a G box?

that's as far as I can see for now, it all goes a bit misty after that...

Steve Clark
09-02-2014, 07:54 PM
- The Mrs is expecting our first child. All tech kit for sale, what would you recommend keeping for warm water diving?

Iain Smith
09-02-2014, 08:04 PM
Hi all, after several months considering my options for redundancy, i've decided to go twinset.

I'm going the MDE Isolation Manifold route.

I'm on a budget, and managed to get another matching Faber 12L cylinder off ebay really cheap and just had it tested and its past.

I've now picked up another Apeks DS4 1st stage, however although its DIN (as my existing), its the Turret version whereas my other isn't. Does this matter? Having one thats a Turret and the other which isn't?

Obviously it would be nice to have matching equipment on both sides, but as mentioned at the moment i'm on a budget, whereas later on i might be able to get matching equipment on both sides.

As others have noted - you don't need to change anything. Regarding "matching equipment", the DS4 and DS-T have the same internals and are essentially the same first stage, bar the swivel. Having one on each side is a question of aesthetics and (maybe) hose routing (though I've been happily using a pair of DS4s for over a decade).

Iain

ScubaCollie
09-02-2014, 08:16 PM
Thanks guys for the replies, at least i now know that i can use them without any problems due to them being essentially the same mechanics just in a different design!!

Dave Lev
09-02-2014, 08:16 PM
Hi Wilbo, that would be great, hadnt thought of or realised that, I would rather swap out the dst for another ds4 as like the shorter body of the ds4 compared with the dst.

I used DS4s on a twinset for hundreds of dives. I now have DSTs (adapted, as Wilbo indicates, with 5th LP port conversions). It really is a much better way of doing things.

I have photos somewhere... but I'm not at my computer. The 5th port means that the wing inflate can come out of the end of the right-hand reg and the backup 2nd stage can come from the end of the left-hand reg. No nasty bends and the hoses reach just that little bit further.

Check out this thread:
http://www.thediveforum.com/showthread.php?4698-DS4-Twinset-Hose-Routing-Issues

ScubaCollie
09-02-2014, 08:21 PM
Thanks Dave, so maybe the better option would be to swap out the ds4 for another dst if I was worried about aesthetics.

dwhitlow
09-02-2014, 08:24 PM
What sort of diving you do, and what do you intend doing?

If you are diving in the 30m range and are on a limited budget then a pony may provide enough redundancy. If you are doing deeper/longer dives than single tank will permit, then the twinset is an excellent option. The twinset start a progression to gas switching and stage cylinders, more expensive gases and this also means training and more equipment. This is not a cheap route.

Moving from a single to a twinset requires new essential skills (shutdowns, decompression planning etc). Do you have these? Have you considered how you might get them? All agencies have a course you can buy and there is always the next course and the next piece of equipment...

You have said your budget is limited so maybe the club system is for you? Are you in a club? In some clubs there are people can teach you these things, and do not charge for that teaching. Have you considered joining one?

Dave Lev
09-02-2014, 08:24 PM
If I had your regs, I'd not be too worried about using them. As they are, they're workable.

Getting the 5th port on the DST would be a good option for the left post - it was the backup reg that was, for me, always that little bit too short.

As you travel down this well-trodden road, you'll move that DS4 to a stage cylinder...

dwhitlow
09-02-2014, 08:29 PM
either DS4 or DST is fine. no you don't need matching first stages. have fun, brace your wallet it's a slippery slope you just stepped on

hang on a minute I feel a little precognition coming on. I'll summarise the thread that stretches ahead:

- if you need a twinset you need to do fundies,
- have you thought this through what about indies?,
- no you need euro 12's and hogloop
- BSAC are wankers and wouldn't let CUUEG hogloop,
- you need two twinsets because you'll get fed up of wasting gas when the deep wreck gets blown out,
- why can't the skippers give me my money back if the weather is shite,
- if you need two twinsets you need a rebreather,
- get an ispo classic and a VR3
- JJ's the's best rebreather because GUE picked it,
- no they're just looking at it and what you really need is an inspo,
- get an OSTC,
- no get a shearwater,
- AP cells are crap,
- should I get a G box?

that's as far as I can see for now, it all goes a bit misty after that...
You forgot to include the pony cylinder alternative :rofl:

If his diving is 30m stuff and he doesn't want to spend money on training that does the job quite well :D

ScubaCollie
09-02-2014, 08:34 PM
Hi there, up to 30M at the moment, however i've caught the bug big time and stacked up 93 dives since April! :)

Wreck diving interests me, and would one day like to dive Scapa, and i'm aware of the deeper diving there.

I will go Tek training eventually, once budgets permit, however at the moment i just want to get in the water and get used to and familiar with the twin set, and once budgets permit, i will be familiar with the twins and can progress and will be ready for the Tek training.

I'm in a club, and a few of the members dive Twins, will have a word to see if they can spend some time with me in the pool one night, thanks for the suggestion! :)

ScubaCollie
09-02-2014, 08:35 PM
If I had your regs, I'd not be too worried about using them. As they are, they're workable.

Getting the 5th port on the DST would be a good option for the left post - it was the backup reg that was, for me, always that little bit too short.

As you travel down this well-trodden road, you'll move that DS4 to a stage cylinder...

I understand there is an o ring in the turret, is this anything to be worried about? I suppose the whole idea of having redundancy and isolation manifold/shutdown options is for things like this anyway, therefore not a problem.

ScubaCollie
09-02-2014, 08:37 PM
You forgot to include the pony cylinder alternative :rofl:

If his diving is 30m stuff and he doesn't want to spend money on training that does the job quite well :D

I thought about a Pony, but read about them being out of balance, and not having much gas to get you up comfortably from 30M+, thought i may as well bite the bullet and go the twin route if this is the route i'm going to be going in the end anyway.

dwhitlow
09-02-2014, 08:50 PM
Hi there, up to 30M at the moment, however i've caught the bug big time and stacked up 93 dives since April! :)

Wreck diving interests me, and would one day like to dive Scapa, and i'm aware of the deeper diving there.

I will go Tek training eventually, once budgets permit, however at the moment i just want to get in the water and get used to and familiar with the twin set, and once budgets permit, i will be familiar with the twins and can progress and will be ready for the Tek training.

I'm in a club, and a few of the members dive Twins, will have a word to see if they can spend some time with me in the pool one night, thanks for the suggestion! :)
Scapa is possible on a single and pony, although bottom time is limited. We had a guy on our boat last year who was doing just that and enjoying himself too.

Ignoring the CCR option, Scapa is best done with manifolded twinset and stage. Many of the dives in Scapa are fine with nitrox/air and a deco gas although a few, in my opinion, warrant some helium too. When I first dived Scapa I had done IANTD Advanced Recreational Trimix (ART) and that was the right level of qualification. The equally useful TDI equivalent is Helitrox and the BSAC option is Sports Mixed Gas.

As already mentioned there are other costs that will appear such as gas switching (or trimix) computer and that might just be the start...

Dave Lev
09-02-2014, 09:01 PM
I understand there is an o ring in the turret, is this anything to be worried about? I suppose the whole idea of having redundancy and isolation manifold/shutdown options is for things like this anyway, therefore not a problem.

It isn't something I spend too much worrying about. The ScubaPro Mk25 has a turret and you'd find them on a lot of twinsets. If I was worried enough, I would get a pair of Apeks FSRs and have 5th ports on them. For me, that would be the closest thing to a perfect setup with products currently available. But anyone suggesting that in the context of this thread would be, rightly, lynched!

Recognise that, without training, the twinset doesn't give you redundancy. You only get redundancy when you know what to do with those valves. Until trained, treat the twinset as if it is just a big single cylinder.

dwhitlow
09-02-2014, 09:01 PM
I thought about a Pony, but read about them being out of balance, and not having much gas to get you up comfortably from 30M+, thought i may as well bite the bullet and go the twin route if this is the route i'm going to be going in the end anyway.
I dived a single pony for a few years and balanced the back-mounted pony using an asymmetric weightbelt.

I only moved to the twinset when I started wanting to do longer and deeper dives and decompression and gas planning showed me the single tanks and pony was no longer enough. I then started on a long and progressively more costly progression :doh:

This is why I was challenging the twinset assumption for progression as the pony might be enough. My local club has a number of people who "progressed" to a twinset but would actually be better with single and pony for the diving they are mostly doing.

However, if wrecks are the interest you might have noticed. the most intact wrecks are generally the deeper wrecks! :sweat:

gaius
09-02-2014, 09:01 PM
I thought about a Pony, but read about them being out of balance, and not having much gas to get you up comfortably from 30M+, thought i may as well bite the bullet and go the twin route if this is the route i'm going to be going in the end anyway.

There's the option of going for an AL40 instead of the traditional steel 3L pony. It's bigger at 5.8L so much more breathing room (haha), the buoyancy of them is much easier to balance, and in the future you can repurpose it as a stage. I really don't see the point of what is usually sold as a pony bottle..

Woz
09-02-2014, 09:09 PM
Dst 1sts sometimes have the annoying habit of a fizzing turret o ring or if you are unlucky, the turret bolt unscrews and pushes your ip up.

Spirit of Guernsey
09-02-2014, 09:17 PM
- The Mrs is expecting our first child. All tech kit for sale, what would you recommend keeping for warm water diving?

Speedos

AxeMan
10-02-2014, 06:25 AM
Recognise that, without training, the twinset doesn't give you redundancy. You only get redundancy when you know what to do with those valves. Until trained, treat the twinset as if it is just a big single cylinder.

Strangely, for all those years when there weren't twinset courses, we all coped just fine without them. It's hardly rocket science.

Dive dog
10-02-2014, 07:28 AM
Strangely, for all those years when there weren't twinset courses, we all coped just fine without them. It's hardly rocket science.

''Training'' does not always mean a €500 course. It can just mean getting someone to explain whats what.

Dave Lev
10-02-2014, 08:05 AM
''Training'' does not always mean a 500 course. It can just mean getting someone to explain whats what.

Precisely.

Hot Totty
10-02-2014, 08:06 AM
And practice lots of it and be prepared to change hose routing and anything else stopping you from reaching valves- no point in knowing what to do if you find it physically impossible due to kit limitations. :)

dwhitlow
10-02-2014, 08:26 AM
Strangely, for all those years when there weren't twinset courses, we all coped just fine without them. It's hardly rocket science.


''Training'' does not always mean a 500 course. It can just mean getting someone to explain whats what.

Completely agree, I spent some happy hours with a guy in my club learning the joys of the twinset and the important drills. I tried a few permutations of my own that amused him (the second hand twinset I bought had a slob nob) but gradually migrated towards the configuration he suggested at the start.

It was useful to have someone help with setup, describe and demonstrate necessary actions and provides feedback whilst the key skills are mastered.

AxeMan
10-02-2014, 09:03 AM
Dst 1sts sometimes have the annoying habit of a fizzing turret o ring or if you are unlucky, the turret bolt unscrews and pushes your ip up.
Never happened to me. The only time I've had bubbles coming out of the turret, it needed a new seat.

Woz
10-02-2014, 10:22 AM
Never happened to me. The only time I've had bubbles coming out of the turret, it needed a new seat.

Seen it lots. And lots.

SonicStomp
10-02-2014, 10:50 AM
There's the option of going for an AL40 instead of the traditional steel 3L pony. It's bigger at 5.8L so much more breathing room (haha), the buoyancy of them is much easier to balance, and in the future you can repurpose it as a stage. I really don't see the point of what is usually sold as a pony bottle..

This is a really good idea. If someone had suggested that to me a few years ago I wouldn't be trying to flog my 3L pony now.....

Druid
10-02-2014, 10:56 AM
If I was worried enough, I would get a pair of Apeks FSRs and have 5th ports on them. For me, that would be the closest thing to a perfect setup with products currently available. But anyone suggesting that in the context of this thread would be, rightly, lynched!


Not least because the 5th port conversion is only suitable for DSTs ;)

It does make for very nice hose routing though

DS4

http://i50.tinypic.com/2vvlxt5.jpg

DST

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg209/druid16/diving/IMG_3149.jpg

SonicStomp
10-02-2014, 11:02 AM
Got me thinking now....I currently use a DST and a DS4 (just the way my kit evolved) and was planning to swap the DST for another DS4 and then use the DST as a stage reg.....however maybe DSTs with 5th port conversions are the way to go then for twinset?

What about as a stage reg - DST or DS4 better?

AxeMan
10-02-2014, 11:04 AM
Seen it lots. And lots.

It must be my splendid maintenance regime keeping the problem at bay.

AxeMan
10-02-2014, 11:09 AM
''Training'' does not always mean a 500 course. It can just mean getting someone to explain whats what.

We're talking about turning two valves off. In fact, being able to turn one off gives you redundancy.

If you really can't work out how to do that, you shouldn't be doing dives that require a twinset.

Druid
10-02-2014, 11:31 AM
Got me thinking now....I currently use a DST and a DS4 (just the way my kit evolved) and was planning to swap the DST for another DS4 and then use the DST as a stage reg.....however maybe DSTs with 5th port conversions are the way to go then for twinset?

What about as a stage reg - DST or DS4 better?

DSTs allow you to store the hose neatly down the cylinder, then the turret rotates to give optimal ;) hose routing when deployed. DS4s work fine but may need a slightly longer hose. As you already have a DS4...

Woz
10-02-2014, 11:37 AM
DSTs allow you to store the hose neatly down the cylinder, then the turret rotates to give optimal ;) hose routing when deployed. DS4s work fine but may need a slightly longer hose. As you already have a DS4...

DS4 with a hose swivel. Works a treat.

Tel
10-02-2014, 11:38 AM
And while we are here :)

DST's work better for Indies, the single HP port on the DS4 restricts how it's used.

dwhitlow
10-02-2014, 11:56 AM
DS4 with a hose swivel. Works a treat.
Yep, that worked for me too.

I survived the extra failure point introduced by the swivel and my backup reg hose lasted much longer.

Dave Lev
10-02-2014, 12:05 PM
Not least because the 5th port conversion is only suitable for DSTs ;)

5th port conversions are also available for FSRs and FSTs now.

http://www.divelife.co.uk/scuba-manufacturers/Apeks/6721/Apeks-FSR-1st-Stage-with-5th-Port

http://www.divelife.co.uk/scuba-manufacturers/Apeks/6722/Apeks-FST-1st-Stage-with-5th-Port-Upgrade

johnkendall
10-02-2014, 12:13 PM
But only new ones I think. Not sure you can convert the older ones.

HTH
John

Iain Smith
10-02-2014, 01:19 PM
Got me thinking now....I currently use a DST and a DS4 (just the way my kit evolved) and was planning to swap the DST for another DS4 and then use the DST as a stage reg.....however maybe DSTs with 5th port conversions are the way to go then for twinset?

What about as a stage reg - DST or DS4 better?

I started off using DSTs as stage regs and loathed the way the turret would always rotate so that the hose was over the top of my head, rather than round the back of my neck where I wanted it. I use DS4s for everything from argon bottle to twinset to (multiple) stages. The DST is also significantly heavier, which becomes an issue if flying with multiple sets of regs.

Regards,

Iain

Stew W
10-02-2014, 01:32 PM
5th port conversions are also available for FSRs and FSTs now.

http://www.divelife.co.uk/scuba-manufacturers/Apeks/6721/Apeks-FSR-1st-Stage-with-5th-Port

http://www.divelife.co.uk/scuba-manufacturers/Apeks/6722/Apeks-FST-1st-Stage-with-5th-Port-Upgrade


But only new ones I think. Not sure you can convert the older ones.

HTH
John

Anyone have the new service manuals? Or indeed anyone fancy stripping their new FSR/FST

I'm curious to know what they have changed that allows the 5th point as, to my knowledge, the service kits have remained the same.

Big Matt
10-02-2014, 01:33 PM
whatever you decide you'll end up changing it, probably working your way through all the different configurations everyone has mentioned, until you find the setup that you're happy with. and then a new reg or another piece of kit will come out and you'll want to try that. divers love fiddling with their kit, and will find endless ways to convince themselves, and others, that they've found the best setup.

accept that you'll spend more money on this. :devil:

Steve Clark
10-02-2014, 01:45 PM
whatever you decide you'll end up changing it, probably working your way through all the different configurations everyone has mentioned, until you find the setup that you're happy with. and then a new reg or another piece of kit will come out and you'll want to try that. divers love fiddling with their kit, and will find endless ways to convince themselves, and others, that they've found the best setup.

accept that you'll spend more money on this. :devil:

Do it Right : Buy it once. (Then buy a re-breather)

Iain Smith
10-02-2014, 02:08 PM
Anyone have the new service manuals? Or indeed anyone fancy stripping their new FSR/FST

I'm curious to know what they have changed that allows the 5th point as, to my knowledge, the service kits have remained the same.

That's very interesting...

Looking at diagrams of the ATX200/FSR and the DS4 the HP side appears identical. If the conversion works for the older FSR, I wonder whether it would fit the DS4 also...

Probably not, knowing my luck, but you never know!

Iain

Stew W
10-02-2014, 02:13 PM
That's very interesting...

Looking at diagrams of the ATX200/FSR and the DS4 the HP side appears identical. If the conversion works for the older FSR, I wonder whether it would fit the DS4 also...

Probably not, knowing my luck, but you never know!

Iain

Wait, it works on an older FSR?

dwhitlow
10-02-2014, 02:19 PM
Do it Right : Buy it once. (Then buy a re-breather)
:rolleyes: :clap: :giggle: Well it took 44 posts before someone said it :D

Iain Smith
10-02-2014, 02:21 PM
Wait, it works on an older FSR?



If the conversion works for the older FSR

johnkendall
10-02-2014, 02:26 PM
It doesn't. Well according to Apeks the last time I chatted with them.

Stew W
10-02-2014, 02:38 PM
....

Stew W
10-02-2014, 02:38 PM
if

Ah, speaking hypothetically.


It doesn't. Well according to Apeks the last time I chatted with them.

They must have altered the balance chamber then. I'd still like to see the spec's though.

SonicStomp
10-02-2014, 04:06 PM
I started off using DSTs as stage regs and loathed the way the turret would always rotate so that the hose was over the top of my head, rather than round the back of my neck where I wanted it. I use DS4s for everything from argon bottle to twinset to (multiple) stages. The DST is also significantly heavier, which becomes an issue if flying with multiple sets of regs.

Regards,

Iain

Thanks Iain.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

ScubaCollie
11-02-2014, 08:20 AM
Alas I managed to obtain another DST, therefore that is two I now have, so not only do they match, they will also offer improved hose Routing.

However, the other DST I have has a slightly different finish and shape to the spindle thingey that you screw into the cylinder valve, the round piece around the DIN fitting if that makes sense?

Can I swap this out with the one from my DS4 which is the same type?

Mikael
11-02-2014, 09:41 AM
Alas I managed to obtain another DST, therefore that is two I now have, so not only do they match, they will also offer improved hose Routing.

However, the other DST I have has a slightly different finish and shape to the spindle thingey that you screw into the cylinder valve, the round piece around the DIN fitting if that makes sense?

Can I swap this out with the one from my DS4 which is the same type?

You probably could but why bother. The appearance of the thumb wheel will make no difference to the regs operation.

ScubaCollie
11-02-2014, 09:50 AM
Just would be nice to have perfectly matching kit on both sides, you know like Yin and Yang ;)

Steve Clark
11-02-2014, 09:53 AM
Alas I managed to obtain another DST, therefore that is two I now have, so not only do they match, they will also offer improved hose Routing.

However, the other DST I have has a slightly different finish and shape to the spindle thingey that you screw into the cylinder valve, the round piece around the DIN fitting if that makes sense?

Can I swap this out with the one from my DS4 which is the same type?

Yes. Just be careful with the o-ring in the base of the spindle. These are often squashed 'square' and don't re-seat properly. Very easy to cut the o-ring.

The correct torque is 12 ft.lbs if you have the means to measure it. They do come undone so make sure it's tight.

Steve

Mikael
11-02-2014, 09:56 AM
Just would be nice to have perfectly matching kit on both sides, you know like Yin and Yang ;)

There is one design of apeks thumb wheel that is rubbish. Its hard plastic with grooves for a web of rubber. The rubber doesn't stay in place though and the plastic can be really sharp shredding cold hands. I would change for a metal one in this case.

Major Clanger
11-02-2014, 09:59 AM
Just would be nice to have perfectly matching kit on both sides, you know like Yin and Yang ;)

Agreed, mismatching kit is like wearing one each of two different style of shoe. It works but you still look like a ☺☺☺☺.







:)







Sent from my ivory tower using Tapatalk

ScubaCollie
11-02-2014, 09:59 AM
Thanks Guys, they are both silver metal but slightly different designs, may get a dive shop to change them over as dont have any way og measuring torque and dont feel comfortable about that o ring problem.

Iain Smith
11-02-2014, 10:37 AM
Torque? Finger tight, then nip it up with an allen key! :-)
(Actually, I do now have a torque wrench, but only because I needed it for something else and used Allen keys for years.)

As for handwheels, I agree with the criticism of the plastic/rubber ones. The older (cross-hatched) metal handwheels are ok, but the newer knurled ones can actually be gripped and are the best option.

ScubaCollie
11-02-2014, 11:41 AM
This is like one of the DST's I have

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/classifieds-other-gear-multiple-items/368599-oxycheq-doubles-wing-apeks-dst-1st-stage.html

And this is like the other
http://www.diverswarehouse.co.uk/popup_image.php/pID/8506

Tel
11-02-2014, 12:27 PM
This is like one of the DST's I have

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/classifieds-other-gear-multiple-items/368599-oxycheq-doubles-wing-apeks-dst-1st-stage.html

And this is like the other
http://www.diverswarehouse.co.uk/popup_image.php/pID/8506

Yeah the first one should be the oldest, they were two versions of that with the older having the
knurling closer together. The 2nd pic is the latest config, however these parts are interchangeable,
so having the old version doesn't mean the stage itself is old etc. Often they are swapped to
match up, same as what you want.