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Stew W
11-12-2013, 11:08 AM
So last weekend at the GUE diving conference there was a discussion on the new GUE CCR1 course.

It was good to hear the rationale behind GUE's move to CCR and also interesting to hear exactly how it would fit into the current curriculum. For those who haven't heard GUE have decided to use the JJ CCR; with a few adjustments (larger dil cylinders, wing). The CCR 1 course will come after Tech 2. After the course divers will be using the unit at a Tech 1 level until a certain number of hours (which I've just forgotten) is reached.

Personally, I agree with the way this has been introduced. Tech 1/ ART level dives aren't prohibitively expensive and you can get a decent amount of bottom time. Tech 2/ Normoxic dives are little more prohibitive. So the CCR1 course comes in as a tool for a specific level of diving, rather than an everyday diving unit.

How does the TDF massive view this?


NB: Remember it's not friday ;)

GLOC
11-12-2013, 11:12 AM
A couple of quick corrections to make sure things don't disappear down the wrong route...

GUE have not chosen to use the JJ as their CCR of choice. The JJ was chosen for the beta programme (it still has some issues which means that it doesn't meet all of the requirements), and GUE have yet to make a formal decision as to what the final unit will be.

Entry to the course is currently Tech 2, but may drop to Tech 1 after the course has been validated through a number of iterations/students.

Regards

jturner
11-12-2013, 11:17 AM
So last weekend at the GUE diving conference there was a discussion on the new GUE CCR1 course.

It was good to hear the rationale behind GUE's move to CCR and also interesting to hear exactly how it would fit into the current curriculum. For those who haven't heard GUE have decided to use the JJ CCR; with a few adjustments (larger dil cylinders, wing). The CCR 1 course will come after Tech 2. After the course divers will be using the unit at a Tech 1 level until a certain number of hours (which I've just forgotten) is reached.

Personally, I agree with the way this has been introduced. Tech 1/ ART level dives aren't prohibitively expensive and you can get a decent amount of bottom time. Tech 2/ Normoxic dives are little more prohibitive. So the CCR1 course comes in as a tool for a specific level of diving, rather than an everyday diving unit.

How does the TDF massive view this?


NB: Remember it's not friday ;)

Seems a reasonable and pragmatic to me and seems to fit in with the overall strategy approach. I'd like to see what's on the course syllabus though and whether or not they are going to propose to attach a long hose to a dil cylinder... I'm pretty much convinced that's not a great idea IMHO but we'll see what they say and the rationale behind it.

Hickdive
11-12-2013, 11:26 AM
But, but BUT! THEY CAN'T DO THAT!

GUE is the anti-christ of diving organisations, they can't go off making informed decisions after careful analysis willy-nilly like that!

MikeF
11-12-2013, 11:32 AM
well they wouldn't choose a rebreather that wasn't all black would they?

I too will be interested to see how they approach this with regard to harmonised kit across OC and CC. What may seem an optimum configuration to you on OC may not be the best way to rig when diving CC. After 25 years of honing my OC kit configuration I had to completely reconfigure and am still tweaking my kit after 5 years of CC.

Paul H
11-12-2013, 11:52 AM
It's a big commitment (both financially and in time) to get to Tech 2.... and the JJ ain't cheap either.

From my Fundies level, I estimate Tech 1 will be approx. 2.5k, Tech 2 a similar price I expect (maybe a touch more) then the JJ comes in at 7k (without the GUE mods). So I'll probably be looking at 15 grand to get there. Mrs H will not be amused!!

I fully agree with using the right tool for the job, keep it simple etc, OC upto 50m, CCR past that, be fully competent on OC in case of bailout and in general the whole GUE philosophy, but at what stage is the line drawn where you have to say 60m dives on OC are unnecessarily expensive in terms of both gas and value for money (bottom time) from the boat fees.

As an aside, is it not better to fully commit to CCR for every dive (i.e. an everyday unit for 15-20m dips), rather than continually switch between OC and CCR, only using CCR on the deep dives?

Woz
11-12-2013, 11:56 AM
As an aside, is it not better to fully commit to CCR for every dive (i.e. an everyday unit for 15-20m dips), rather than continually switch between OC and CCR, only using CCR on the deep dives?

The best divers I know dive the kit for the job. Whether it's a single 10 or a CCR they're superb in every kit configuration.

dwhitlow
11-12-2013, 11:59 AM
I too will be interested to see how they approach this with regard to harmonised kit across OC and CC.
Just like BSAC did a few years ago? :giggle:

MikeF
11-12-2013, 12:00 PM
[QUOTEAs an aside, is it not better to fully commit to CCR for every dive (i.e. an everyday unit for 15-20m dips), rather than continually switch between OC and CCR, only using CCR on the deep dives?[/QUOTE]

oooh save that one for Friday

johnnyblaze
11-12-2013, 12:11 PM
The CCR 1 course will come after Tech 2. After the course divers will be using the unit at a Tech 1 level until a certain number of hours (which I've just forgotten) is reached.


Does this mean that you can go straight from OC Trimix to CCR Trimix without first building up hours on air/nitrox dil?

notdeadyet
11-12-2013, 12:20 PM
Does this mean that you can go straight from OC Trimix to CCR Trimix without first building up hours on air/nitrox dil?

I hope so. The restriction of air dil but allowing 30m+ is utterly ridiculous and the sooner the agencies dump it the better.

The only place air has on a rebreather is the suit bottle.

Ron MacRae
11-12-2013, 12:20 PM
As an aside, is it not better to fully commit to CCR for every dive (i.e. an everyday unit for 15-20m dips), rather than continually switch between OC and CCR, only using CCR on the deep dives?


The best divers I know dive the kit for the job. Whether it's a single 10 or a CCR they're superb in every kit configuration.

Unfortunately crap divers like me need all the help we can get.:)

Having everything in the same place on every dive means that when the stuff hits the fan I'll at least remember where everything is without having to fumble round my kit trying to remember what I brought this time. I always dive exactly the same kit, twinset/wing/torches/SMBs/masks/etc./etc., with everything in exactly the same place, unless it's in the pool. The only concession to depth is a deco-stage.

Ron.

johnnyblaze
11-12-2013, 12:21 PM
I hope so. The restriction of air dil but allowing 30m+ is utterly ridiculous and the sooner the agencies dump it the better.

The only place air has on a rebreather is the suit bottle.

Interesting development so, hopefully the more established agencies will take note!

Stew W
11-12-2013, 12:22 PM
Does this mean that you can go straight from OC Trimix to CCR Trimix without first building up hours on air/nitrox dil?

and with that comment I now owe GLOC a beer :(


Well put in context you can take IANTD ART on CCR which is 48 metre ticket.

Doing CCR1 and then being limited to Tech 1 maximums is not really any different.

Jackdiver
11-12-2013, 12:46 PM
Well put in context you can take IANTD ART on CCR which is 48 metre ticket.

Doing CCR1 and then being limited to Tech 1 maximums is not really any different.


And IANTD Mod 1 is 42m on Air with 15 minutes deco...

Stew W
11-12-2013, 01:05 PM
And IANTD Mod 1 is 42m on Air with 15 minutes deco...

Which you can take as ART instead. Which was the point.

Jackdiver
11-12-2013, 01:23 PM
Which you can take as ART instead. Which was the point.

Not always.

And my point is more to do with why is there an Air Dil course in the first place?

Seems that every one claims that Air Dil is such a bad idea...

Stew W
11-12-2013, 01:29 PM
Not always.

And my point is more to do with why is there an Air Dil course in the first place?

Seems that every one claims that Air Dil is such a bad idea...

Yes always. IANTD changed their course structure in 2009.

CCR Diver - IANTD - World Headquarter (http://www.iantd.com/index.php/2012-08-29-15-44-41/rebreather-dive-programs/item/34-ccr-diver)

Jackdiver
11-12-2013, 01:37 PM
Yes always. IANTD changed their course structure in 2009.

CCR Diver - IANTD - World Headquarter (http://www.iantd.com/index.php/2012-08-29-15-44-41/rebreather-dive-programs/item/34-ccr-diver)

Hmm... Okay.

I'll put it this way, it wasn't offered as an option to me when I did IANTD Mod 1 in 2009.

I believe it was along the lines that you had to have had an OC trimix qualification to get CCR ART.

Digger
11-12-2013, 01:53 PM
The best divers I know dive the kit for the job. Whether it's a single 10 or a CCR they're superb in every kit configuration.

You are too kind. And you're not bad on a single yourself. But I will add this to the list I carry around with me at all times of important feedback I have received over the years :)

Digs.

dwhitlow
11-12-2013, 01:55 PM
I'll put it this way, it wasn't offered as an option to me when I did IANTD Mod 1 in 2009.

I believe it was along the lines that you had to have had an OC trimix qualification to get CCR ART.

I did mine with IANTD ART in 2010 but already had OC trimix cert.

I only knew to ask because someone else, without no mix certificate, did their Mod1 with ART in 2009.

Maybe something that varies with instructor?

Jackdiver
11-12-2013, 02:03 PM
I did mine with IANTD ART in 2010 but already had OC trimix cert.

I only knew to ask because someone else, without no mix certificate, did their Mod1 with ART in 2009.

Maybe something that varies with instructor?

Quite likely.

But you still end up with people only Air qualified to 42m with deco, when it seems that a lot of people now think this is a bad idea.

Shouldn't the basic CCR course be ART at a minimum?

Mikael
11-12-2013, 02:09 PM
....

GUE have not chosen to use the JJ as their CCR of choice. The JJ was chosen for the beta programme (it still has some issues which means that it doesn't meet all of the requirements), and GUE have yet to make a formal decision as to what the final unit will be.
......

Regards

Have GUE said what their unit requirements are, if so what are they?
cheers

dwhitlow
11-12-2013, 02:43 PM
But you still end up with people only Air qualified to 42m with deco, when it seems that a lot of people now think this is a bad idea.

Shouldn't the basic CCR course be ART at a minimum?
I believe so but then agencies still give out 50m air tickets!

Hot Totty
11-12-2013, 03:00 PM
Doubt they'll get round to using the JJ - I reckon the pos mk6 is more viable, valves at the top see less changing the muscle memory :p - of course they'll be limited to air and no deco :D

Steve Clark
11-12-2013, 03:23 PM
Seems a reasonable and pragmatic to me and seems to fit in with the overall strategy approach. I'd like to see what's on the course syllabus though and whether or not they are going to propose to attach a long hose to a dil cylinder... I'm pretty much convinced that's not a great idea IMHO but we'll see what they say and the rationale behind it.

Based on the little bit I know about diving with GUE SCR people, I suspect the CCR setup, like RB80, will also adopt large, back-mounted cylinders that could be used interchangeably as DIL, OC bailout or OC long-hose donate-able emergency gas.

As with most things GUE, a standard initial muscle-memory response, followed by thinking-diver problem solving, will probably be essential for it to fit with the rest of the system. An strong emphasis of the article Jarrod wrote in Quest was the potential impact on the remainder of the system. If teams started adopting slightly different procedures for CCR, this may disrupt the reliability and standardisation of the current OC & SCR procedures. If you're not exclusively diving CCR and have to switch between the two, this weakens an already effective system.

It would make a lot of sense for primary donate to be included. It works on single tank, it works on OC doubles, it works breathing a stage/deco bottle and it works with an RB80 loop. If it's important to you, it also works when swimming single file in a cave and when tow scootering. It may be a compromise too far to abandon it to get a more optimal setup just for CCR.

For me however, it sounds an astonishingly expensive thing to commit to. You can buy a lot of mix, boats, flights and scooters for 10k!

Steve

jturner
11-12-2013, 05:16 PM
Based on the little bit I know about diving with GUE SCR people, I suspect the CCR setup, like RB80, will also adopt large, back-mounted cylinders that could be used interchangeably as DIL, OC bailout or OC long-hose donate-able emergency gas.

As with most things GUE, a standard initial muscle-memory response, followed by thinking-diver problem solving, will probably be essential for it to fit with the rest of the system. An strong emphasis of the article Jarrod wrote in Quest was the potential impact on the remainder of the system. If teams started adopting slightly different procedures for CCR, this may disrupt the reliability and standardisation of the current OC & SCR procedures. If you're not exclusively diving CCR and have to switch between the two, this weakens an already effective system.

It would make a lot of sense for primary donate to be included. It works on single tank, it works on OC doubles, it works breathing a stage/deco bottle and it works with an RB80 loop. If it's important to you, it also works when swimming single file in a cave and when tow scootering. It may be a compromise too far to abandon it to get a more optimal setup just for CCR.

For me however, it sounds an astonishingly expensive thing to commit to. You can buy a lot of mix, boats, flights and scooters for 10k!

Steve

I fear you may well be right but I struggle to see how a hog-looped long hose would work smoothly with a huge rebreather loop getting in the way; unless they propose that you take out the loop to donate, the long hose is routed way out back behind the loop hoses or... dare I say it.... you tuck and bungee the long hose! :x:

I feel slightly soiled mentioning bungeed & stuffed long hoses on a thread about a new GUE course! Forgive me, John - I have sinned!!!
;)

Joking aside though, how would that work with the O2 tank?

Iain Smith
11-12-2013, 05:33 PM
I fear you may well be right but I struggle to see how a hog-looped long hose would work smoothly with a huge rebreather loop getting in the way; unless they propose that you take out the loop to donate

Well...that's currently the RB80 long hose donation drill...

"consistency" would imply that this might carry through to the CCR course? All of which is sheer speculation on my part!

I.

Banana Joe
11-12-2013, 05:49 PM
If you need to donate gas on a 'GUE CCR' then you have properly messed up somewhere. Firstly you must be forced completely off the loop, secondly your own long hose must be broken, thirdly your backup reg must be broken. Only then do you need to go to a buddy, who I would hope would be right with you considering the commotion you are probably causing.

Cheers, Joe

BTS
11-12-2013, 06:36 PM
Shouldn't the basic CCR course be ART at a minimum?

and if you are diving somewhere Tx isn't available?

Air dil is fine to 35M IMO....


As for removing your mouthpiece to donate a looped back up, simply farmyard stupid to quote someone, I forget who...

If you don't need to donate the back up ever then why have it on a seven foot hose, a regular length will do...

flyingfisheye
11-12-2013, 07:10 PM
Quite likely.

But you still end up with people only Air qualified to 42m with deco, when it seems that a lot of people now think this is a bad idea.

Shouldn't the basic CCR course be ART at a minimum?

There should still be Air Dil on CCR, what if you have no Helium available in your location, would that mean you cannot dive? Or have i missed the point here that all CCR course should include Helium?

Also with the GUE course who will tach it as all their instructors are OC, or have they sneaked over to some other agency to train? :giggle:

GLOC
11-12-2013, 07:13 PM
FFE, don't worry about who will teach it. I think there are enough experienced CCR divers to run courses, like the guys who are doing 45mins @ 75m on the Mars project for a start...

flyingfisheye
11-12-2013, 07:15 PM
FFE, don't worry about who will teach it. I think there are enough experienced CCR divers to run courses, like the guys who are doing 45mins @ 75m on the Mars project for a start...

Are they GUE divers then using CCR?

Major Clanger
11-12-2013, 07:20 PM
Will they have to thrash themselves and wear hair shirts for relying on automation or will ccr computers and other automation be a thing of yesterday on GUE machines. I liked the comment that the JJ still has some issues before acceptance, I'd have thought it was the other way around, like take your place in the queue for them as they come out the factory, which I believe was one of the sticking points.

Jackdiver
11-12-2013, 07:20 PM
There should still be Air Dil on CCR, what if you have no Helium available in your location, would that mean you cannot dive? Or have i missed the point here that all CCR course should include Helium?


I am indeed suggesting that all CCR courses should include helium...

Not being able to use air would just be daft, so it never occurred to me that anyone would think that was what I meant.

Major Clanger
11-12-2013, 07:24 PM
I am indeed suggesting that all CCR courses should include helium...

Not being able to use air would just be daft, so it never occurred to me that anyone would think that was what I meant.

My TDI OC Trimix ticket meant that my Mod 1 IANTD qual certified me down to 48m on trimix.

I think Mark Powell is looking to change the TDI Mod 1 programme so that a helitrox type cert is included or an option at mod 1 level as they didn't previously recognize oc trimix cert for their mod 1 divers. Mod 1 on air is an anathema and should be seen that way by all agencies.

Stew W
11-12-2013, 07:25 PM
Are they GUE divers then using CCR?


Not sure. One bloke is called Jarrod Jablonski, the other Rich Lundgren. They might have something to do with GUE :p

notdeadyet
11-12-2013, 07:31 PM
There should still be Air Dil on CCR, what if you have no Helium available in your location, would that mean you cannot dive? Or have i missed the point here that all CCR course should include Helium?

It's no different to doing an OC trimix course. Just because you have a helium ticket doesn't mean you can't use air or nitrox. Personally, I'm very reluctant to use air ever as a diluent regardless of the depth. Every bad CCR dive I've had has been on air, I don't think it's just of a coincidence.

swampy
11-12-2013, 07:40 PM
My TDI OC Trimix ticket meant that my Mod 1 IANTD qual certified me down to 48m on trimix.

I think Mark Powell is looking to change the TDI Mod 1 programme so that a helitrox type cert is included or an option at mod 1 level as they didn't previously recognize oc trimix cert for their mod 1 divers. Mod 1 on air is an anathema and should be seen that way by all agencies.

He already has - I've got one of them :)

Basically - it's a 4 dive day course and at the end of you you get either a 30m Air Dil with no Deco or (if you already hold a deco ticket) you get a Inspiration Helitrox Diver cert, assuming you're good enough

flyingfisheye
11-12-2013, 07:44 PM
It's no different to doing an OC trimix course. Just because you have a helium ticket doesn't mean you can't use air or nitrox. Personally, I'm very reluctant to use air ever as a diluent regardless of the depth. Every bad CCR dive I've had has been on air, I don't think it's just of a coincidence.

Totally Agree with you and Jackdiver! I thought JD was saying CCR are should be taught as Helium only my mistake! So yes Air and He should be the entry level with Depth and deco as the progression. After all it is easier to use a bit of Helium in the loop for clarity of thought and WoB. so to not use it would be just dull. I believe TDI mod 1 is 30M air dil but might be wrong. Do you need long hose on a CCR? after all you bale out onto your own cylinder or hand off the cylinder to other diver, or is that not right?

As far as the question about instructors I understand GUE had a RB course but was limited to Air Dil 30M. Was more an OC organisation, so a really experienced OC diver or instructor might need a bit of further training to run a course on CCR. Also if guys are diving to 75M for 45 Minutes on the wreck of MARS in Baltic does not again always make them a good instructor. :whew:

gobfish1
11-12-2013, 07:44 PM
Has the jj got better Magic Pebble,s in it tham , as i seem to remember , some saying the old pebbles were not up to the job ,:shagger

,

Major Clanger
11-12-2013, 08:04 PM
or hand off the cylinder to other diver, or is that not right?



My cylinder/s won't be handed off to anyone other than the boat bitch helping me de-kit.

swampy
11-12-2013, 08:09 PM
My cylinder/s won't be handed off to anyone other than the boat bitch helping me de-kit.

My "buddy" ran out of deco gas diving the Moldavia (long time ago, he doesn't dive anymore) so when I finished my deco I gave him my stage and then went up (yes, I'm an arse)

it's the only time I'd do it

gobfish1
11-12-2013, 08:23 PM
My "buddy" ran out of deco gas diving the Moldavia (long time ago, he doesn't dive anymore) so when I finished my deco I gave him my stage and then went up (yes, I'm an arse)

it's the only time I'd do it

i had a buddy that had a problem with his deco gas , i gave him my o2 and he did half his deco then he passed it back to me we both got out at the same time ,

no arse needed , :rofl::rofl:

Major Clanger
11-12-2013, 08:41 PM
My "buddy" ran out of deco gas diving the Moldavia (long time ago, he doesn't dive anymore) so when I finished my deco I gave him my stage and then went up (yes, I'm an arse)

it's the only time I'd do it


You're talking about open circuit. For that I'd plan gas for two, I don't on closed circuit, I'm not even convinced I really know how much I need for me.

Mikael
11-12-2013, 09:47 PM
So the rational for keeping hog looped long hose donation on the RB80 and presumably the new GUE rebreather is so that the response is same, meaning that it can be done instinctively by muscle memory built up since fundies, Tech 1 and then Tech 2 but....

...due to the rebreather loop the diver first has to take this off (closing the DSV I guess) then because the long hose is not in the mouth it has to be unclipped (or is it on a breakaway?) handed off with the donating diver going onto his back up OC reg under his chin.

So;


Its no longer primary donation per say as the donating diver is on the loop
The very first action is now different as the diver has to go off loop and remember to switch the DSV to off
The long hose has to be unclipped, which if I understand correctly rarely if ever happens for real or in prior training as at all times (other then during a shutdown drill) a GUE diver should have whatever reg is in her mouth ready to donate



Why go to this length to keep the donating action the same when it actually isn't. If you are going to break the system why not keep the donating diver on loop and deploy a reg by some other means. I appreciate that the divers that get to the stage where GUE will let them near a rebreather will be fairly switch on to say the least so hopefully this shouldn't phase them but we're all human, we all make mistakes under pressure. At least, to an outsider like me, the donating process above seems to add more risk surely?

BTS
11-12-2013, 09:50 PM
Not sure. One bloke is called Jarrod Jablonski, the other Rich Lundgren. They might have something to do with GUE :p

Which agency did they do the CCR training with?

Mikael
11-12-2013, 09:57 PM
Go to the 4:12 mark to see an OOG drill


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-y2I-mWSxw&list=PL8C8B92E18E2A6522

gobfish1
11-12-2013, 10:03 PM
v slick lol

MikeF
11-12-2013, 10:14 PM
did I really just watch two rebreather divers with huge gas duration turn into two OC divers with a limited gas supply via a load of fumbling because only one of them had an issue?

That looked soooo much slicker than pulling a second stage out of some bungy loops and handing it over.:rolleyes:

Logun
11-12-2013, 10:23 PM
did I really just watch two rebreather divers with huge gas duration turn into two OC divers with a limited gas supply via a load of fumbling because only one of them had an issue?

That looked soooo much slicker than pulling a second stage out of some bungy loops and handing it over.:rolleyes:

I was thinking that. Why should two divers have to come off the loop just because one has a problem? Especially when the diver with an issue has his own backup second stage.

notdeadyet
11-12-2013, 10:55 PM
Also if guys are diving to 75M for 45 Minutes on the wreck of MARS in Baltic does not again always make them a good instructor. :whew:

I seem to recall GI3 having a rant about that very subject many moons ago :D

notdeadyet
11-12-2013, 11:00 PM
Go to the 4:12 mark to see an OOG drill

Are they kidding? Have they ever had something go tits up on a box where you need gas? I've had a few and none of them gave me time for any of that fannying about.

Mikael
11-12-2013, 11:14 PM
Are they kidding? Have they ever had something go tits up on a box where you need gas? I've had a few and none of them gave me time for any of that fannying about.

Maybe they have mixed teams in mind?

Barrygoss
11-12-2013, 11:24 PM
Maybe they have mixed teams in mind?

Gue see ccr as a mission critical tool, if one needs it, all need it.
Mixed teams and Gue. Lol

B

gobfish1
11-12-2013, 11:51 PM
i hope they rethink the long hose its silly and make them look pig headed , having to come off the loop to help the out of gas diver, is a no no ,

you can strut about all you like saying it all works, just like it do,s oc , wont change a thing , ist just wrong , even if its only for a short time ,

johnkendall
12-12-2013, 03:28 AM
did I really just watch two rebreather divers with huge gas duration turn into two OC divers with a limited gas supply via a load of fumbling because only one of them had an issue?

That looked soooo much slicker than pulling a second stage out of some bungy loops and handing it over.:rolleyes:

From the look of the video, and having both been through the training and knowing the dive sites in Florida, I would say that is a video from an RB80 class, which means that that is potentially one of the first times those divers had done that skill.

Lets have a look at how it's actually done in real life.

Two RB80 divers with multiple stages. Generally speaking we are likely to be driving the RB from a stage bottle. So If we have an issue with the RB the first thing is to switch to OC on the BOV, we can then analyse what the issue with the RB is. If it is an injection problem, then we can try and fix it a number of ways through the switch block. If it is a flood, then we can try and clear it. If we think it's CO2 break-through, then we stay OC. If it is a problem with the BOV/mouthpiece, then we will switch to the backup reg that is around our neck on a necklace. Assuming we can't fix the problem, then at this point we will start to exit. If we were driving the RB from a stage bottle, then I'd switch to that before exiting in order to maintain as much of my backgas as possible. All through this, my buddy will still be on his RB. As we exit, I will be keeping a close eye on my gas reserves, if I start getting low, then my buddy can hand over his stage bottle in the first instance, and run his RB from backgas. If I use all of that too, and am low, then at this point my buddy will be donating his long hose, but it can be done in a calm manner as there is no instant need for it.

The only other way that I might need his long-hose donated, is if I have an issue with the RB that stops me using it, a failure of my stage bottle, and then two failures on my backgas. That is highly unlikely.

All that said, we do still practice long hose donate on the RB80. And for the poster who mentioned having to unclip the long hose. Yes, we have to do this, but by the time a diver is a tech 2 diver, they are generally well practiced at clipping and unclipping a long hose, as we have to do it multiple times on every dive.


I can't talk of the GUE CCR class as I'm not involved in anyway with it, but I will point out that Richard Lundgren and Jarrod Jablonski (the only 2 GUE instructors currently teaching anything CCR with GUE) are very experienced divers both OC and CCR and very very good instructors.

HTH
John

graham_hk
12-12-2013, 06:29 AM
did I really just watch two rebreather divers with huge gas duration turn into two OC divers with a limited gas supply via a load of fumbling because only one of them had an issue?

That looked soooo much slicker than pulling a second stage out of some bungy loops and handing it over.:rolleyes:


I was on the first CCR beta course. I learned a lot during that course and I started diving CCR in 1999 (hundreds of hours over inspiration, MK15, RB80 and now JJ) and even used to instruct upto normoxic level on CCR. Lundgren was diving prototype inspirations and is good friends with Dave T and Jarrod has been playing with CCRs for years not to mention the 10+ years of extreme diving the original Halcyon and later RB80.

I would be willing to bet I can get gas to an OOG CCR buddy more efficiently with a long hose than you can a stage, carry more bailout and be slicker... oh and look more fabulous.

But its all a moot point really because as Banana Joe said earlier in thread (and JK above) the chances are so minuscule of really having to deploy in a RB dive in an instant that I don't worry about it.

jturner
12-12-2013, 07:21 AM
Ok, so assuming the above two posts from John and Granham are the way it will be done, surely there will still be an inconsistency between the GUE OC setup, the RB80 and the new one, unless the long hose is attached to the O2 tank (which might not be a good idea) or the CCR is rigged up back to front?

johnkendall
12-12-2013, 07:33 AM
Ok, so assuming the above two posts from John and Granham are the way it will be done, surely there will still be an inconsistency between the GUE OC setup, the RB80 and the new one, unless the long hose is attached to the O2 tank (which might not be a good idea) or the CCR is rigged up back to front?

Nope. The CCR will be fitted with a pair of large cylinders manifolded together (very similar to the RB80 setup) and will have an O2 bottle in addition to this. That way the regs are basically the same as the OC system. I believe (and I'm sure Graham will correct me) that they are currently using a pair of 7s on the CCR.

HTH
John

dwhitlow
12-12-2013, 07:34 AM
which agency did they do the ccr training with?bsac? ;)

Mikael
12-12-2013, 07:47 AM
....

I would be willing to bet I can get gas to an OOG CCR buddy more efficiently with a long hose than you can a stage, carry more bailout and be slicker... oh and look more fabulous.

But its all a moot point really because as Banana Joe said earlier in thread (and JK above) the chances are so minuscule of really having to deploy in a RB dive in an instant that I don't worry about it.

So why carry the long hose hog looped at all? Its no longer the first line of defence if another team mate has an issue with his back gas when on CCR, as John said there will be plenty of warning if things go that badly wrong that they need to go OC on your supply and its also very unlikely.

What advantage does having the hose stowed like this confer? I read a write up by Clare about her RB80 training and she indicated that the long hose could get trapped when plugging stuff into the switch block. Is this still a potential issue on these beta CCRs? Does the trade off of keeping "primary donation" of a hog looped long hose, however slick you can make it, stack up against possible fubars / hassle of trapping the long hose under stuff not to mention going off loop which could be avoided altogether?

Curious to hear the rational for keeping the long hose hog looped? A mischievous person might say the hod loop is there just to ear mark who is and isn't a GUE CCR diver ;)

graham_hk
12-12-2013, 07:54 AM
So why carry the long hose hog looped at all? Its no longer the first line of defence if another team mate has an issue with his back gas when on CCR, as John said there will be plenty of warning if things go that badly wrong that they need to go OC on your supply and its also very unlikely.

What advantage does having the hose stowed like this confer? I read a write up by Clare about her RB80 training and she indicated that the long hose could get trapped when plugging stuff into the switch block. Is this still a potential issue on these beta CCRs? Does the trade off of keeping "primary donation" of a hog looped long hose, however slick you can make it, stack up against possible fubars / hassle of trapping the long hose under stuff not to mention going off loop which could be avoided altogether?

Curious to hear the rational for keeping the long hose hog looped? A mischievous person might say the hod loop is there just to ear mark who is and isn't a GUE CCR diver ;)

In beta CCR GUE configuration there is no switchblock for the long hose to get tangled in. There aren't any disadvantages that I can think of for having the long hose and it does provide the best way to share gas should the need ever arise. I can envisage having to share gas but just not in a rush. If I was diving with a team mate who had to bailout I would likely rearrange the long hose making it easier to deploy (I might also consider this diving in mixed teams)

BTS
12-12-2013, 08:55 AM
Which agency did they do the CCR training with?

Are we ignoring the elephant in the room?

I am guessing they trained with someone....

BTS
12-12-2013, 08:58 AM
But its all a moot point really because as Banana Joe said earlier in thread (and JK above) the chances are so minuscule of really having to deploy in a RB dive in an instant that I don't worry about it.

So why have the long hose when a standard length will do?

Seems simply to be there for historical reasons..... and follows the reasoning BSAC gave for not using hoglooping...

Major Clanger
12-12-2013, 09:11 AM
So why have the long hose when a standard length will do?

Seems simply to be there for historical reasons..... and follows the reasoning BSAC gave for not using hoglooping...

An anachronism is what it be...


Why do people go on about using the right tool for the job. I dive an RB at all depths because I like diving and I like using it to do those dives; will also go single cylinder if I feel like a change or am diving with my daughter. Typically, it's a goo'er line yet they'e quite happy to use a twinset in situations where they really don't need the extra weight, redundancy and hassle. Seems a pointless line to take when the real reason is that it's because it's often the only set up they have, or can't be bothered to simplify...what they'll say is that they want to stay current on the equipment they're most likely to use, this is no different from RB divers or anyone else. Live and let live.

Clanger (Prolapsed anus since 2010)

notdeadyet
12-12-2013, 09:54 AM
I'm not convinced by the whole it would cause OC skills to be degraded otherwise argument either. I've never found myself struggling to drive after I've been on my bike for a month. If we're talking T2 minimum qualified divers then that's going to be fairly experienced people. It would surprise me if there was any degradation that an easy dip on OC wasn't enough to remedy.

Major Clanger
12-12-2013, 11:01 AM
I dived oc after a lay off of about 10 months. My SAC had improved and my buoyancy control was a thing of beauty.







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MikeF
12-12-2013, 11:29 AM
it's an argument that can go and round. I've never really seen an issue in switching between CC and OC other than my SAC has usually gone to shit until I modify my breathing back into OC mode but that usually only takes 10 minutes or so.

personally I grab what ever is easiest to do the dive with because I'm a lazy bugger. usually that will be my rebreather for the simple reason it will be set up and sat on the back deck. after that it's a matter of quickly assessing what I think is needed which normally goes along the lines of:

<25m no deco - alpinist
<30m deco or wreck penetration - box plugged into onboard air and grab a stage
30m - 50m no or short deco - box plugged into offboard mix stage
50m- 70m or long deco - use one of my 'standard' runtime/bailout plans/mixes grab a couple of stages and plug it into offboard deep bailout
anything deeper stop and have a long hard think


but if it's not set up or I'm on holiday somewhere I'll happily grab an OC rig and jump straight in. Usually my first thought is how terribly noisy and bubbly it is, followed shortly later by 'isn't this easy, why do I bother with all that junk'

Buzz
12-12-2013, 11:48 AM
If you need to donate gas on a 'GUE CCR' then you have properly messed up somewhere. Firstly you must be forced completely off the loop, secondly your own long hose must be broken, thirdly your backup reg must be broken. Only then do you need to go to a buddy, who I would hope would be right with you considering the commotion you are probably causing.

Cheers, Joe

A bad fill would be one reason, though hopefully noticed in pre-dive checks. May also affect rest of the team.

MikeF
12-12-2013, 11:49 AM
Nope. The CCR will be fitted with a pair of large cylinders manifolded together (very similar to the RB80 setup) and will have an O2 bottle in addition to this. That way the regs are basically the same as the OC system. I believe (and I'm sure Graham will correct me) that they are currently using a pair of 7s on the CCR.

HTH
John

It's a logical step and I tried it with onboard 7's but rapidly gave it up and reverted to onboard 3's and stages for the diving I do. It worked fine once in the water or if diving from a steady boat with a lift, but I abandoned it as just too much weight to safely put on / move around in on a rolling boat or when climbing a ladder. I found the ability to hand off stages before climbing the ladder outweighed the benefits in water of carrying them on my back.

graham_hk
12-12-2013, 12:02 PM
It's a logical step and I tried it with onboard 7's but rapidly gave it up and reverted to onboard 3's and stages for the diving I do. It worked fine once in the water or if diving from a steady boat with a lift, but I abandoned it as just too much weight to safely put on / move around in on a rolling boat or when climbing a ladder. I found the ability to hand off stages before climbing the ladder outweighed the benefits in water of carrying them on my back.


Check the JJ FB page some non-gooers put up some posts debunking this. 3s with a weight belt are heavier than 7s ...

I like the 7s much more gas and easier to handle than 3s and a 80cuft stage - but if you're happy go for it :)

Paul r s
12-12-2013, 12:07 PM
But with 7's I find I need more lead for when they are empty if I bail out.
Now thinking about going back to 3's


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MikeF
12-12-2013, 12:20 PM
I would respectfully say that I would far rather load, unload and pick up 4 lumps at 30kg, 10kg, 10kg and 10kg than one lump at 60kg. each to their own, people are free to try it for themselves and make their own mind up.

PS personally I think Ali80's are horrific, I'm more of a faber 10L and ali 7 guy myself and I'm still not so sure about the Ali 7's over a steel 7.

Major Clanger
12-12-2013, 12:39 PM
I would respectfully say that I would far rather load, unload and pick up 4 lumps at 30kg, 10kg, 10kg and 10kg than one lump at 60kg. each to their own, people are free to try it for themselves and make their own mind up.

PS personally I think Ali80's are horrific, I'm more of a faber 10L and ali 7 guy myself and I'm still not so sure about the Ali 7's over a steel 7.

Increasingly I'm liking steel over ali's. My 7 is now steel and favoured a steel 10 over a second ali 80, clipped in and pulled back tight.

graham_hk
12-12-2013, 01:44 PM
I would respectfully say that I would far rather load, unload and pick up 4 lumps at 30kg, 10kg, 10kg and 10kg than one lump at 60kg. each to their own, people are free to try it for themselves and make their own mind up.

PS personally I think Ali80's are horrific, I'm more of a faber 10L and ali 7 guy myself and I'm still not so sure about the Ali 7's over a steel 7.

Have you got a 10kg weight belt?

BTS
12-12-2013, 02:19 PM
I guess then they learnt from the internet and filled in the blanks themselves...

gobfish1
12-12-2013, 03:25 PM
why dive a ccr / ? the jj , like your diving a gas-extender,

you only nedd the long hose cos you need big cylinders on a gas-extender, hench the need to gat at said gas if the extender go,s tit,s up ,

no matter how slick or how far down the line of cockups you still need to come of the loop , and stick a reg in your mouth said reg is a unknown quantity just about at the worst time ,

ie you have done all that other stuff you say comes be4 the long hose hand off ,

out of gas diver is eating in to your dill , dill you may well need , = two divers under pressure ,

ps at what point do you pull the reg from the out of gas diver and say ,, sorry i need the last 20 bar , to get over the next two humps ,

your fixed at the hip , and if your out of gas divers dont play nice your both going down (yes yes a well trained diver will allways play nice )

Steve Clark
12-12-2013, 04:00 PM
The might sound provocative, but I see the long-hose as a very important part of GUE team diving.

Being able to very quickly offer a temporary fix to whatever gas issue your buddy is having is a fundamental cornerstone of GUE training. You can't think if you can't breathe.

Sure, there are lots of personal redundant options, particularly on RB, but there is something really nice about your buddy having a completely independent source on hand and actually actively anticipates using it as a standard response.

Mixed teams do also happen in GUE. I've done a couple of fun dives with John (me on OC) and also some support diving with deep cave teams in Florida. It is in these circumstances where the longhose is most likely to be used. The OC buddy has less options for working regs.

Steve

Mikael
12-12-2013, 04:25 PM
The might sound provocative, but I see the long-hose as a very important part of GUE team diving.

Again as an outsider, I can't help wondering if the long hose is there because it would be seen as unGUE not to have it.


Being able to very quickly offer a temporary fix to whatever gas issue your buddy is having is a fundamental cornerstone of GUE training. You can't think if you can't breathe.

Sure, there are lots of personal redundant options, particularly on RB, but there is something really nice about your buddy having a completely independent source on hand and actually actively anticipates using it as a standard response.

So that's an argument for a long hose but why hog loop it under the loop, you are now donating a reg that is no longer in your mouth (so you lose the certainty that it was working just one breath previously as is the case OC) and the simplicity and uniformity of response is broken from previous training plus you are a rebreather diver that has to take the loop out of your mouth to achieve this. Could there not be a way to stow the long hose in some other manner, especially given that when diving an all CCR team the likelihood and urgency of another diver going onto your long hose is low.

gobfish1
12-12-2013, 04:33 PM
The might sound provocative, but I see the long-hose as a very important part of GUE team diving.

Being able to very quickly offer a temporary fix to whatever gas issue your buddy is having is a fundamental cornerstone of GUE training. You can't think if you can't breathe.

Sure, there are lots of personal redundant options, particularly on RB, but there is something really nice about your buddy having a completely independent source on hand and actually actively anticipates using it as a standard response.

Mixed teams do also happen in GUE. I've done a couple of fun dives with John (me on OC) and also some support diving with deep cave teams in Florida. It is in these circumstances where the longhose is most likely to be used. The OC buddy has less options for working regs.

Steve

steve i dont want to sound provocative but most divers if not all are trained to quickly offer a temporay fix to a buddy ,
and a long hose is just the job , i have a few my self , tho not as long as yours , as i dont need it to be as long i dont dive caves,

just like i dont need one on my rebreather , as it only has 3l cylinders so not much point ,

now if i dived a gas extender that needs lots of drive gas that would be another Story as id want to be able to get at that large gas supply if and when needed


so tell us none cave divers why a long hose is needed oc , and then tell us why a bail out cylinder of my hip wont do the same and do it better ,

and please do tell why you pass the out of gas diver the reg from your mouth ,

Chris Brown
12-12-2013, 04:50 PM
If you need to donate gas on a 'GUE CCR' then you have properly messed up somewhere. Firstly you must be forced completely off the loop, secondly your own long hose must be broken, thirdly your backup reg must be broken. Only then do you need to go to a buddy, who I would hope would be right with you considering the commotion you are probably causing.

Cheers, Joe

Do you mean to 'receive gas?' :)

You can dontae OC gas from a perfectly functioning ccr




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Banana Joe
12-12-2013, 05:00 PM
I do mean that, thank you for the clarification Chris.


Do you mean to 'receive gas?' :)

Hoglooping offers the easiest method of deployment AND allows the hose to be restowed. You can probably donate a bungeed hose from somewhere quicker than you can one hoglooped under a loop. But what do you do when the dust has settled, the 'casualty' has fixed their problem and is either back on the loop or breathing their own bailout? Waste some more time getting them to stuff it back?

Anyway, don't CCR divers plan that 'this is my gas, I need if I have an issue', this still applies whether you carry BO on your side, back, surface. The 'GUE CCR' approach is actually very simple, just like the RB80. It isn't for everyone and it never will be.

Cheers, Joe

gobfish1
12-12-2013, 05:12 PM
I was on the first CCR beta course. I learned a lot during that course and I started diving CCR in 1999 (hundreds of hours over inspiration, MK15, RB80 and now JJ) and even used to instruct upto normoxic level on CCR. Lundgren was diving prototype inspirations and is good friends with Dave T and Jarrod has been playing with CCRs for years not to mention the 10+ years of extreme diving the original Halcyon and later RB80.

I would be willing to bet I can get gas to an OOG CCR buddy more efficiently with a long hose than you can a stage, carry more bailout and be slicker... oh and look more fabulous.

But its all a moot point really because as Banana Joe said earlier in thread (and JK above) the chances are so minuscule of really having to deploy in a RB dive in an instant that I don't worry about it.



yes im sure you can , but your going to need a word with them other guys in the vid ,

so i pull my reg from my side can and give it to my out of gas buddy ,

no need to turn off my DSV flip it out of the way, pass the long hose and hope its working , pop in my back up reg and hope its going to work . take out my back up reg pull my DSV back down put in my mouth turn it back to ccr , and hay ho slick and fabulous ,

if you say so lol

dwhitlow
12-12-2013, 05:37 PM
so i pull my reg from my side can and give it to my out of gas buddy ,

no need to turn off my DSV flip it out of the way, pass the long hose and hope its working , pop in my back up reg and hope its going to work . take out my back up reg pull my DSV back down put in my mouth turn it back to ccr , and hay ho slick and fabulous ,

This sounds madder than the BSAC position back in 2009. Their poorly communicated attempt to promote a harmonised system did at least make a bit of sense because the donor is never without a breathing source. :clap::clap::clap:

When I first saw this I was stunned think anyone could imagine it is better to carry out such an involved, and potentially risky, sequence of steps rather than just handing off a stage reg and then the stage to follow!:giggle::giggle::giggle:

Unless I am mistaken, I am coming off my perfectly working rebreather so I can unclip one untested regulator to hand it off whilst I pick up another untested regulator from under my chin, meanwhile I am leaving the only known working breathing loop floating above my head!!:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Chris Brown
12-12-2013, 05:46 PM
yes im sure you can , but your going to need a word with them other guys in the vid ,

so i pull my reg from my side can and give it to my out of gas buddy ,

no need to turn off my DSV flip it out of the way, pass the long hose and hope its working , pop in my back up reg and hope its going to work . take out my back up reg pull my DSV back down put in my mouth turn it back to ccr , and hay ho slick and fabulous ,

if you say so lol

Yup, I spent (wasted) my first 300 odd ccr hours trying to make it all DIR. $25,000 later I realised it was a different animal and did a total u- turn. The methodologies don't transfer cleanly from OC to ccr in my opinion.

However, if anyone can make CCR diving safer and the training better it's Jarrod Jablonski and I look forward to seeing what they come up with . To be fair, he's spent a lot of time getting familiar with everything that's out there compared to AG who seemed to be an overnight expert and was embarrassingly proven otherwise based on some flawed logic.

I'm yet to be convinced of the benefit of larger onboards and / or off board 02 only for example, as I'm yet to be convinced of plumbing in all this OC hose routing stuff to make it like your trusty twin set. But then again, I don't do 6 mile cave dives at average 280 feet of depth either, do if it's expedition specific, I'll reserve judgement.

However, if it's 60 /70m tec 2 level stuff then I'm sure there'll be a few raised eyebrows if anything more complicated than what we do now becomes policy




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notdeadyet
12-12-2013, 06:58 PM
Dive a rebreather like a rebreather, it's loads easier than trying to turn it into a twinset. Having a load of gas and having it split between two tins is great but it's no better than having enough. It all looks a bit complicated too and that in itself strikes me as a bit of a dead end on a box, it's not for me no matter who's signing the ticket. Them big names don't make it any better, Chris, when the basic set-up looks a bit of a goat shagging contest. I'm a bit disappointed, it's a predictable set-up and I can't help thinking it's more about keeping the brand than anything else. A lot of DIR divers went to the KISS years ago when it came out and came up with some nice. clean, simple set-ups. They're just peasants though despite doing it for a decade and shedload of diving, no point listening to them.

Any word on what gases they're using? Are they sticking to the standard OC gases or are they going to choose something useful?

Steve Clark
12-12-2013, 07:04 PM
so tell us none cave divers why a long hose is needed oc

It is not needed.

It is arguably easier than an octopus length, but not a safety requirement.

The only real benefit in clear open water is that everytime I (/GUE) practice a donation (which is on most ow dives and prior to every cave dive) it is exactly the same kit and muscle memory technique. It always works.

Steve

Major Clanger
12-12-2013, 07:07 PM
The might sound provocative, but I see the long-hose as a very important part of GUE team diving.



Having a long hose isn't an issue, it's what GUE might be suggesting it's connected to that's the problem.

I have a long hose on both my deep bailout and deco cylinders, as recommended by iantd and psai syllabuses.

Edit: should have read later posts first. That aside, sometimes the reasoning for using muscle memory doesn't justify the compromise. Open water the integrated long hose offers consistency but for the cost of increasing likelihood of failure.

Major Clanger
12-12-2013, 07:17 PM
Any word on what gases they're using? Are they sticking to the standard OC gases or are they going to choose something useful?

Good question, we all know one of the main advantages is the flexibility of gas logistic planning that ccr offers.

Rich Walker
12-12-2013, 07:50 PM
Any word on what gases they're using? Are they sticking to the standard OC gases or are they going to choose something useful?

Don't see any real problem with standard gasses. It makes sense to pick one deeper than the planned dive. Start off with 21/35 and work from there.

Rich

BTS
12-12-2013, 08:10 PM
18/35 gives excellent ratio

gobfish1
12-12-2013, 08:15 PM
It is not needed.

It is arguably easier than an octopus length, but not a safety requirement.

The only real benefit in clear open water is that everytime I (/GUE) practice a donation (which is on most ow dives and prior to every cave dive) it is exactly the same kit and muscle memory technique. It always works.

Steve

the long hose is to swim a diver out of a cave or to next gas, if you cant swim side by side , no ?

and the most important point thats been hammerd to death is your passing a known working reg to the out of gas diver , ie your not passing him a duff reg, just when he needs gas the most ,

now tell how that works on the jj set up , after years of bollox about giving a out of gas diver a working reg now its fine to maybe toss him a reg you think maybe ok

Google Image Result for http://cfhammond.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/no_cherry_picking.jpg (http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?newwindow=1&client=firefox-a&sa=X&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&channel=fflb&tbm=isch&tbnid=QjFcX0gIlf_CmM:&imgrefurl=http://cfhammond.wordpress.com/2013/04/15/no-cherry-picking/&docid=78-SIFVOZ3BO0M&imgurl=http://cfhammond.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/no_cherry_picking.jpg&w=630&h=608&ei=cCeqUoSXGtGShgfni4GwDQ&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:6,s:0,i:110&iact=rc&page=1&tbnh=179&tbnw=185&start=0&ndsp=10&tx=93&ty=81&biw=1280&bih=637)


im sure that slick diver will give it a pre breath be4 he hands it over ,

notdeadyet
12-12-2013, 08:43 PM
Don't see any real problem with standard gasses. It makes sense to pick one deeper than the planned dive. Start off with 21/35 and work from there.

Rich

I'm thinking more in terms of bailout and the efficiency of the gas volumes you're carrying. The standard gases make good deco choices for every day diving, bailout isn't every day. It's a rare occurrence and I'd rather trade making better use of gas volumes/carrying less bottles over efficient deco. A simple example, on OC a two stage dive is going to be back gas, 50 and 100. On CCR for the equivalent dive your two stages are going to be bottom gas and one deco gas. Is EAN50 the best choice? I don't think it is, it's a hell of a long way to 21m when you've burnt a lot of bottom gas in a CO2 hit. EAN36 is a bit lean. Either that or you add in a third bottle, I guess that may be a reason for the offboard oxygen. Personally, I don't like carrying more stuff to do the same dive CCR than I would OC.

Rich Walker
12-12-2013, 08:45 PM
the long hose is to swim a diver out of a cave or to next gas, if you cant swim side by side , no ?

and the most important point thats been hammerd to death is your passing a known working reg to the out of gas diver , ie your not passing him a duff reg, just when he needs gas the most ,

now tell how that works on the jj set up , after years of bollox about giving a out of gas diver a working reg now its fine to maybe toss him a reg you think maybe ok

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im sure that slick diver will give it a pre breath be4 he hands it over ,

I have some sympathy for this position, believe it nor not. But what would your solution be to an out-of-gas diver? I know it's very unlikely that a CCR diver with sufficient bailout would ever need gas, but I'd always like to have the option to donate.

I never really liked the "donate from a stage" as I would need to identify whether it was bottom gas, deco gas etc before deploying the reg. Don't fancy donating an O2 at depth by mistake ;)

Rich

Rich Walker
12-12-2013, 08:48 PM
I'm thinking more in terms of bailout and the efficiency of the gas volumes you're carrying. The standard gases make good deco choices for every day diving, bailout isn't every day. It's a rare occurrence and I'd rather trade making better use of gas volumes/carrying less bottles over efficient deco. A simple example, on OC a two stage dive is going to be back gas, 50 and 100. On CCR for the equivalent dive your two stages are going to be bottom gas and one deco gas. Is EAN50 the best choice? I don't think it is, it's a hell of a long way to 21m when you've burnt a lot of bottom gas in a CO2 hit. EAN36 is a bit lean. Either that or you add in a third bottle, I guess that may be a reason for the offboard oxygen. Personally, I don't like carrying more stuff to do the same dive CCR than I would OC.

No offboard oxygen that I'm aware of...

Like you say, it's a pretty rare event. And to be honest what I really want if I do need to bail out of a shit load of bailout gas. Deco I can fix "on the fly", if you know what I mean. We have years of experience OC, so we're pretty comfortable in that situation ;)

Rich

Janos
12-12-2013, 09:03 PM
Go to the 4:12 mark to see an OOG drill


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-y2I-mWSxw&list=PL8C8B92E18E2A6522
What the f'ck?

Crap trim, flappy, hands, loop floating way above their heads? Are they really DIR?

I'm far from perfect, but I'd be happier if my trim was better, the loop was under my chin rather than 0.5m above my head, and I used my fins to fin.

Janos

Janos
12-12-2013, 09:06 PM
I have some sympathy for this position, believe it nor not. But what would your solution be to an out-of-gas diver? I know it's very unlikely that a CCR diver with sufficient bailout would ever need gas, but I'd always like to have the option to donate.

I never really liked the "donate from a stage" as I would need to identify whether it was bottom gas, deco gas etc before deploying the reg. Don't fancy donating an O2 at depth by mistake ;)

Absolutely.

I get around this by putting a metal ring around the neck of my 50% stage. The reg is then 'hard-clipped' to this ring, meaning it cannot be donated without unclipping the reg.

My bottom stage can be donated at anytime.

If the clip jams on the 50% stage as I can cut the string tying the clip to the reg. However this could take a little time, and so I never plan on going onto my 50% instantaneously, but envisage that I will have at least a minute or two to switch regs.

Janos

Suggsy
12-12-2013, 09:22 PM
http://static.environmentalgraffiti.com/sites/default/files/images/SKYVUL.jpg

gobfish1
12-12-2013, 09:30 PM
I have some sympathy for this position, believe it nor not. But what would your solution be to an out-of-gas diver? I know it's very unlikely that a CCR diver with sufficient bailout would ever need gas, but I'd always like to have the option to donate.

I never really liked the "donate from a stage" as I would need to identify whether it was bottom gas, deco gas etc before deploying the reg. Don't fancy donating an O2 at depth by mistake ;)

Rich

Rich i can see the the long hose moves well from the the oc set up to the gas extender set up , its got big cylinders of drive gas and you want at it, if the extender go,s wrong ,
so no problem stick with what you know , i dont know much about how a big cave dive is set up , but im sure them big cylinders on the divers baxk is only used comming out and the reg / long hose is more for the owners use and if he has to pass it off then its a bit of fa af but so what .you make it work ,

a ccr dont need big cylinders of drive gas , even the smallest cylinders will out last the scrubber , id rather have a 2nd off board of o2 (2l ) than a shit load of dill / bail out , or a long hose and back up regs

ps my o2 has no regs on them tho i do have a popoff reg to plug in to my MAV hose,s thats on all my dive cylinders , handy for when you find your self with one cylinder and reg and two divers wanting to breath from said cylinder ,

now i would find that pop off more useful than a long hose on my breather ,

only 3 things will push you of a breather , cell,s gone to rat shit flood and the good old co2 , you dont run out of gas , you run out of rebreather ,

Chris Brown
12-12-2013, 09:41 PM
Rich i can see the the long hose moves well from the the oc set up to the gas extender set up , its got big cylinders of drive gas and you want at in if the
extender go,s wrong , so no problem stick with what you know , i dont know much about how a big cave dive is set up , but im sure them big cylinders on the divers baxk is only used comming out and the reg / long hose is more for the owners use and if he has to pass it of then its a bit of faf but so what .
you make it work ,

but a ccr dont need big cylinders of drive gas , even the smallest cylinders will out last the scrubber , id rather have a 2nd off board of o2 2l than a shit load of dill / bail out , or a long hose and back up regs

ps my o2 has no regs on them tho i do have a popoff reg to plug in to my MAV hose,s thats on all my dive cylinders , handy for when you find your self with one cylinder and reg and two divers wanting to breath from said cylinders ,

now i would find that pop off more useful than a long hose on my breather ,

only 3 things will push you of a breather , cell gone to rat shit flood and the good old co2 , you dont run out of gas , you run out of rebreather ,

Absolutely spot on and it's this kind of understanding that seems so alien and rubs against the grain when you are squared away in your dir OC set up.

As you rightly point out, pscr with drive gas is a different concept to ccr, so I'm hoping that they will have a different approach


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Janos
12-12-2013, 09:41 PM
only 3 things will push you of a breather , cell gone to rat shit flood and the good old co2 , you dont run out of gas , you run out of rebreather ,

I agree with Professor Gobbers.

I keep the rebreather for rebreathing, and the bailout for bailing out (me or my buddy).

But that's just me. Others will make their own choices.

Janos

Major Clanger
12-12-2013, 09:43 PM
i never really liked the "donate from a stage" as i would need to identify whether it was bottom gas, deco gas etc before deploying the reg. Don't fancy donating an o2 at depth by mistake ;)

rich

llrr avoidance to keep a neck loop ;)

dwhitlow
12-12-2013, 11:26 PM
I never really liked the "donate from a stage" as I would need to identify whether it was bottom gas, deco gas etc before deploying the reg. Don't fancy donating an O2 at depth by mistake ;)



llrr avoidance to keep a neck loop ;)

LLRR fixes the worry about which stage donate - always left works and then activate grey matter.

The lack of a long hose annoyance means stage right is fine (inspo wing has a D-ring for stages too ;) )

graham_hk
13-12-2013, 12:22 AM
yes im sure you can , but your going to need a word with them other guys in the vid ,

so i pull my reg from my side can and give it to my out of gas buddy ,

no need to turn off my DSV flip it out of the way, pass the long hose and hope its working , pop in my back up reg and hope its going to work . take out my back up reg pull my DSV back down put in my mouth turn it back to ccr , and hay ho slick and fabulous ,

if you say so lol


blah blah blah - when I see you anchored ot the bottom or hanging off your smb I'll be sure to wave.

The fact you can't even describe it slickly nicely demonstrates the point - Next you'll be telling me you donate from your heavy steel stage like that is not going to be cluster with those skills :p

graham_hk
13-12-2013, 12:32 AM
Absolutely spot on and it's this kind of understanding that seems so alien and rubs against the grain when you are squared away in your dir OC set up.

As you rightly point out, pscr with drive gas is a different concept to ccr, so I'm hoping that they will have a different approach


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Lets just step away from the ingrained stuff and mis-informed opinions about RB80 and try to show me how you're going to carry the gas for a 100m (or even 75m) dive with 3L cylinders.

Twin 7s on the back - its slicker and more gas than any other way no matter how you look at it.

Take a weenie approach and you always end up with a weenie set up.

GLOC
13-12-2013, 12:48 AM
Lets step away from willy waving and discuss matters in a grown up fashion...

Regards

gobfish1
13-12-2013, 02:10 AM
Lets just step away from the ingrained stuff and mis-informed opinions about RB80 and try to show me how you're going to carry the gas for a 100m (or even 75m) dive with 3L cylinders.

Twin 7s on the back - its slicker and more gas than any other way no matter how you look at it.

Take a weenie approach and you always end up with a weenie set up.

No one is talking about the RB80 Graham , jj or some other ccr i think it says in the op post , not gas extenders

i have 4 small cyliners to run my ccr . 10l in all so not to far off your 14l (whats 4l between m8 at 100m )

now if i had a rb80 id take the biggerrrrrrrrrr cylinders to. have you the big boys unit or are you on the 8 to 1 dump .

ps
now this armchair dive
so we know your on 7l can you do that 100m dive with just that on your jj , what size o2 cylinder will you be using ,

how long a bottom time would you like ,
are you in a team of 3 or will you be going solo . lol

will you be shaping the Curve or using the onboard computer , what giraffes would you like, also will you be swimming or taking a tow ,,
blah blah blah 100m will be just a tad passed the tec2 then ,

Major Clanger
13-12-2013, 06:52 AM
The idea that someone can safely deploy a neck looped long hose quicker than I can from a stage is laughable, as is the idea that I won't be able to neatly restore it afterwards. Stick to giving sound reasons for the method or it just comes across as petty. For mainstream ow diving, large tins and a hog off them is one method but certainly not the best method, other than maybe for consistency among those choosing to complicate things.

That aside, 7's are a sod to use due to the weighting penalties associated with them, as a number of rb diver's are or have found out and going back to 3's.







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Simon TW
13-12-2013, 07:02 AM
I have some sympathy for this position, believe it nor not. But what would your solution be to an out-of-gas diver? I know it's very unlikely that a CCR diver with sufficient bailout would ever need gas, but I'd always like to have the option to donate.

I never really liked the "donate from a stage" as I would need to identify whether it was bottom gas, deco gas etc before deploying the reg. Don't fancy donating an O2 at depth by mistake ;)

Rich

It's pretty easy Rich, You have the bail out for that dive on the left and the deco on the right. CCR doesn't afford the luxury of time that an O/C gas switch does. When you need to bail out you need to stick the reg on your left in your mouth (or your buddies). With an OC gas switch you have time to signal buddy, show them the mix etc. All stages left are clusterfuck on a CCR bail out IMHO.

What has bee described as the GUE set up seems similar to the "Chasey's Dover Rig" A thread that he did on the net with a JJ some 7s and some additional plumbing. I'm sure that he will be along soon with a Patent Lawyer :)

Chris Brown
13-12-2013, 07:20 AM
Lets just step away from the ingrained stuff and mis-informed opinions about RB80 and try to show me how you're going to carry the gas for a 100m (or even 75m) dive with 3L cylinders.

Twin 7s on the back - its slicker and more gas than any other way no matter how you look at it.

Take a weenie approach and you always end up with a weenie set up.

Nothing ingrained or misinformed regarding my opinion on the rb80. It's a mission specific rig that enabled the turner connection to happen utilising WKPP protocols.

75m is a piece of cake on 3 ltr cylinders. If you have a gas issue on 02 side, a quick squirt of rich bailout goes a long way.

You shouldn't be needing a ton of dil either unless you have an issue. Again, that should easily be provided via off board. Suit inflation from a bottle same as on OC.

This is how the majority of instructors from the majority of agencies teach mixed gas ccr diving. On the sentinel, it's done on 2ltr tanks with off board plugged in pre- jump.

Saying 7's are 'better now matter how you look at it' is a bit blinkered in my opinion. There are lots of ways to skin a cat, especially on 100m dives. I'm not saying they are worse, I'm keeping an open mind which is why I await GUE CCR training with interest to see what they do.

Perhaps you could elaborate on why they are so slick in your opinion?


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Chris Brown
13-12-2013, 07:35 AM
Another valid point I just thought of - most ccr mix dives are 50-70m. Why in this range would you want a complicated rig as standard? Onboard 3's with off board bailout lean left rich right is simple and effective


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Garf
13-12-2013, 07:41 AM
This is how the majority of instructors from the majority of agencies teach mixed gas ccr diving.

That has no bearing on what GUE will do.

GUE are not in the habit of doing things just because other people do. We are certainly not in the habit of just teaching the way the majority do. The mission statement of our organisation is quite the opposite in fact.

flyingfisheye
13-12-2013, 07:52 AM
Just out of interest as it's Friday are we trying to achieve here?

Are we talking about an entry level CCR course, 100M course or cave rebreather course?

What risks have we identified that we are trying to cover? And what is the likely hood of it happening?

I understand with GUE that it is about standardisation and muscle memory, but a CCR and OC are not the same to use like a Car and a motorbike for example both transport, both use same area i.e. roads. But the operation is different, I have no trouble changing gear with my foot, or using my hand. I have not trouble braking with my foot or using my hand, I have no trouble with using the clutch with either foot or hand. It depends on the equipment I am using at the time.

CCR are big and heavy ( or mine is) and if you strap two 7L on it and and O2 bottle and suit inflator for a 30M dive that is going to be hard work to stand up in or drag in to the rib.

How much Dil do you need?

What is this preoccupation with it's going to fail and taking large heavy twins on a shallow dive? Or diving Cave techniques in the sea? Would it not be better to do the right thing for each circumstance?

graham_hk
13-12-2013, 08:01 AM
So as per usual nobody can tell me how they are going to carry enough gas to do a 100m dive (with enough deep gas to get 2 of us back to the first gas switch). Why would I want to use a different set up at 50m as 100m btw? We start with a sensible foundation and build from there - we don't ahve to reinvent the wheel everytime the dives go up a notch.

What is laughable is that the consensus here is that GUE should dive with tiny dil bottles, donate from a stage because that is what everybody else is doing ...

Also its hysterical that the whole system is going to fall apart because of the long hose ... and one old youtube of some students practising on an RB80 (by looks of site 1st day of class).

The general wisdom is that you can pull a reg out from a stage faster than long hose deploy (based on your huge knowledge gained from myths of poorly practised divers and watching one video). Good luck with stage deployment that:
- stage deployment has a habit of getting snagged and even hoses clipped in
- you have to ID stage
- you have to swim around with a live reg that will drain the stage on a scooter
- you are talking about handing off steel stages (no effect on buoyancy or weighting for sure)
- might not contain a reasonable volume of gas
- may infact be turned off and first stage get dislodged during deployment (thats going to be fun for your OOG diver)

graham_hk
13-12-2013, 08:11 AM
What is this preoccupation with it's going to fail and taking large heavy twins on a shallow dive? Or diving Cave techniques in the sea? Would it not be better to do the right thing for each circumstance?

If you're going to follow that logic - why are you using a rebreather on dives that could easily be done on a single and a pony?

At the end of the day this a GUE CCR for GUE divers if you don't buy into our underlying philosophies and want to dive in any other way you see fit nobody is going to stop you or tell you you're doing it wrong. Fill your boots and enjoy yourself

flyingfisheye
13-12-2013, 08:19 AM
You would not want a new CCR diver to have the whole load of extra weight etc on his first and possible last training dive would you? surly not.

The trouble with GUE to the non GUE diver is they same to have this "we are right and you are wrong approach" IMHO A kind of blinkered view on the world.

Cave divers have come unstuck in the sea diving in wrecks that are not caves. As sea divers have come unstuck in Caves i am sure.

This is GUE CCR1 course so i guess limited in depth and time, so if two CCR diver and one has a problem, will he not use his bale out and then exit? leaving enough time for the other diver to turn on his bale out and hand to him if he needs it later in the exit?

Also surely you can not be saying that handing a stage off will effect your buoyancy! It must be something that you have practised?

Imagine the buoyancy change of two CCR divers both on OC coming up as their loops inflate, that could lead to a separation of the long hose OOG diver?

Mikael
13-12-2013, 08:25 AM
....

What is laughable is that the consensus here is that GUE should dive with tiny dil bottles, donate from a stage because that is what everybody else is doing ...

Also its hysterical that the whole system is going to fall apart because of the long hose ...



No, just a lot of people scratching their head wondering why move to large onboard dil cylinders. I also look forwards to hearing the rational on why a long hose is kept under the rebreather loop. If you don't want to donate from stages then you could still have a long hose but find a different way of storing it such as bungeeing down the side (after all in the highly unlikely event of some one going onto your long hose you won't be hanging around but aborting the dive pronto), so whether you then re-stow it hog looped or get a team mate to stuff it back once you reach the gas switch its not the end of the world).

To me it looks like GUE have started with a hog looped long hose and put the CCR around it rather then the other way. As I said I am intrigued to learn what thought process GUE used to reach their final configuration what ever that may end up being.

flyingfisheye
13-12-2013, 08:27 AM
If you're going to follow that logic - why are you using a rebreather on dives that could easily be done on a single and a pony?

At the end of the day this a GUE CCR for GUE divers if you don't buy into our underlying philosophies and want to dive in any other way you see fit nobody is going to stop you or tell you you're doing it wrong. Fill your boots and enjoy yourself

the answer i would expect from a GUE diver! if you don't agree with me! but no explanation of why you do that?

I ride a motor bike and drive a car i can use both to go work but choose either.

the reason i use a CCR for different dives shallow and deep is because i enjoy it and find using a CCR very interesting. but i pick the correct gas and bale out for the risk that is there. Ie straight to surface from 20M, straight to surface from 40M or some deeper dive with Deco. I think about what i am using and why, I don't blindly accept someone ideas.

If you want to dive a CCR from a rib with guys in their 50's and 60's and expect them to lift your heavy unit in to the boat with twin 7L etc on it carry on.

BTS
13-12-2013, 08:31 AM
The general wisdom is that you can pull a reg out from a stage faster than long hose deploy

Of course you can, it is one movement as opposed ot ahlf a dozen, unless you are Paul Daniels I don't rate yuour chances... and why the hell am I coming off my loop because my buddy has an issue... that is, again, farmyard stupid....

As for you gas for 100M question, I estimate a single diver can carry enogh bailout for themselves to 80M, past that it becomes a team game...


BTW, do you know which agency trained the two GUE gurus on CCR? No one else seems to....

graham_hk
13-12-2013, 08:32 AM
The trouble with GUE to the non GUE diver is they same to have this "we are right and you are wrong approach" IMHO A kind of blinkered view on the world.



Oh the irony - but here we have a whole thread of people telling us we are doing it wrong. Including you in the rest of your post.


Why don't you let us handle our diving and training and instead of assuming that we will make a bunch of mistakes and tell us we are doing it wrong just let us get on with it...


I'll happily dive with anybody in this thread - practise skills with you, show you the way we do things, let you do the dives you want to in the way you want to do them. But if posters are just gonna come on here and tell us that were doing it wrong or make other petit insults you are going to get favourable replies.

FWIW I have never seen a GUE cave diver coming unstuck in the ocean - because good skills are transferable between environments, we don't over weight ever (even new CCR divers), we don't exit from new CCR dives we ascend, we practise buoyancy and we know how to handle venting from an expanding loops - any more preconceptions that don't apply?

dwhitlow
13-12-2013, 08:37 AM
So as per usual nobody can tell me how they are going to carry enough gas to do a 100m dive (with enough deep gas to get 2 of us back to the first gas switch). Why would I want to use a different set up at 50m as 100m btw? We start with a sensible foundation and build from there - we don't ahve to reinvent the wheel everytime the dives go up a notch.

What is laughable is that the consensus here is that GUE should dive with tiny dil bottles, donate from a stage because that is what everybody else is doing ...

:mm: As with the BSAC HL thing, if everyone else thinks something is a good idea that does not mean they are wrong.


Also its hysterical that the whole system is going to fall apart because of the long hose ... and one old youtube of some students practising on an RB80 (by looks of site 1st day of class).

The general wisdom is that you can pull a reg out from a stage faster than long hose deploy (based on your huge knowledge gained from myths of poorly practised divers and watching one video).


Why does it need to be fast? A diver has an issue, bailed out and then signalled to his team. He is breathing from a reasonable sized cylinder and now the team is heading for the exit, or ascending. Proper monitoring and communication will avoid an OOG situation and transferring stages can avoid the OOG.


Good luck with stage deployment that:
- stage deployment has a habit of getting snagged and even hoses clipped in

Isn't that why people practice these things? A skilled diver can quickly unsnag a clipped hose.


- you have to ID stage

It will be clearly labelled and the bottom gas will clipped on the left. The team will know the gas available and the location. It was part of the plan.


- you have to swim around with a live reg that will drain the stage on a scooter

Flowstops are wonderful devices. I have them on my stages for just this reason. :)


- you are talking about handing off steel stages (no effect on buoyancy or weighting for sure)

I am sure GUE training covers adjusting to buoyancy changes whilst exchanging cylinders. The team will be practised in doing this. On my mod 2 we did this in relatively shallow waters with a tidal surge moving us about.


- might not contain a reasonable volume of gas

Gas planning?


- may infact be turned off and first stage get dislodged during deployment (thats going to be fun for your OOG diver)
As proper planning and training has moved us from a diver who is suddenly OOG we have time to check things before it is being breathed.

You whole post emphasises the urgency I assocte with an OC failure and OOG. Diving CCR we have more capacity for self rescue and there is time to think.

dwhitlow
13-12-2013, 08:39 AM
BTW, do you know which agency trained the two GUE gurus on CCR? No one else seems to....
Sounds to me like they read about it on the Internet:clap::clap:

flyingfisheye
13-12-2013, 08:44 AM
Oh the irony - but here we have a whole thread of people telling us we are doing it wrong. Including you in the rest of your post.


Why don't you let us handle our diving and training and instead of assuming that we will make a bunch of mistakes and tell us we are doing it wrong just let us get on with it...


I'll happily dive with anybody in this thread - practise skills with you, show you the way we do things, let you do the dives you want to in the way you want to do them. But if posters are just gonna come on here and tell us that were doing it wrong or make other petit insults you are going to get favourable replies.

FWIW I have never seen a GUE cave diver coming unstuck in the ocean - because good skills are transferable between environments, we don't over weight ever (even new CCR divers), we don't exit from new CCR dives we ascend, we practise buoyancy and we know how to handle venting from an expanding loops - any more preconceptions that don't apply?

Why ask the public about the GUE course then? on an open forum? or was the OP non GUE if so i apologies!

When i said over weight, i was looking at the surface area not in the water. Ie that is a lot of weight on your back etc.

and the exit v ascend was mention early by you i believe but again possible wrong.

I get confused as are we talking cave diving or sea diving? did you not mention handing off a stage will effect buoyancy?

Mikael
13-12-2013, 08:51 AM
Another youtube vid of an RB80 diver practising long hose donation, go to around 2:11 to see it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGuRP9ldeOQ

Chris Brown
13-12-2013, 08:53 AM
So as per usual nobody can tell me how they are going to carry enough gas to do a 100m dive (with enough deep gas to get 2 of us back to the first gas switch). Why would I want to use a different set up at 50m as 100m btw? We start with a sensible foundation and build from there - we don't ahve to reinvent the wheel everytime the dives go up a notch.

What is laughable is that the consensus here is that GUE should dive with tiny dil bottles, donate from a stage because that is what everybody else is doing ...

Also its hysterical that the whole system is going to fall apart because of the long hose ... and one old youtube of some students practising on an RB80 (by looks of site 1st day of class).

The general wisdom is that you can pull a reg out from a stage faster than long hose deploy (based on your huge knowledge gained from myths of poorly practised divers and watching one video). Good luck with stage deployment that:
- stage deployment has a habit of getting snagged and even hoses clipped in
- you have to ID stage
- you have to swim around with a live reg that will drain the stage on a scooter
- you are talking about handing off steel stages (no effect on buoyancy or weighting for sure)
- might not contain a reasonable volume of gas
- may infact be turned off and first stage get dislodged during deployment (thats going to be fun for your OOG diver)

First let me comment on the "why should we do what everyone else is doing?" comments.

You ARE doing that already on open circuit. Bill Main, Sheck Exley, etc etc developed the North Florida cave rig that you dive today. It was honed to near perfection from thousands of dives by dozens of divers at the pinnacle of their sport. My GUE training and associated discussions were around "why reinvent the wheel" and "it works because of the amount of input from divers over the years" Now, this also applies to CCR to a degree, although we are somewhat in the early stages of its development. Many of the techniques have evolved from experience of whats workable and sensible deep, a lot of it with CO2 issues and associated narcosis. You don't have to blindly follow it for sure, but we do it that way for a reason, not just because everyone else is doing it.

The main difference is that you want a team OC gas share scenario at 100m, whereas some of us do not. Im personally only interested in getting myself up to the next gas switch as a bailout on CCR is totally different to an open circuit OOG scenario.

If you want the team approach to work at 100m with CCR, than thats fine, and your search for alternative methods is very valid. I like the surface support approach with a shot line on deep dives, but its not always possible. I would like a team approach backed up by training that would perhaps give more validity and confidence to deep team bailouts, but at the moment theres not enough consistency.

BTW - Im not advocating a different set up deep to shallow. Quite the opposite. I want my deep set up (CCR and on boards) the same or as near as possible. It seems that the GUE / UTD discussions thus far are gearing up in such a way that results in a more complicated set up for shallow dives than seems necessary.

graham_hk
13-12-2013, 08:53 AM
Why ask the public about the GUE course then? on an open forum? or was the OP non GUE if so i apologies!

When i said over weight, i was looking at the surface area not in the water. Ie that is a lot of weight on your back etc.

and the exit v ascend was mention early by you i believe but again possible wrong.

I get confused as are we talking cave diving or sea diving? did you not mention handing off a stage will effect buoyancy?

Yep a guy who has done fundies and returned from GDC now represents the whole organisation on GUEs CCR beta program.

As for over weight - some non GUE divers did the calcs - a rig with 7s is actually lighter or comparable to a rig with 3s and weight belt.

Anyway I am not playing anymore - you guys can busily take out of context, misquote, misrepresent and fill your boots with preconceptions and assumptions.

I'll be out diving - I don't have to justify the way I dive to anyone but who I am diving with. I do it that way because it makes sense to me, for the diving I do and because I enjoy it that way.

If anybody wants to learn more PM me and lets go for a dive

jturner
13-12-2013, 09:06 AM
Nope. The CCR will be fitted with a pair of large cylinders manifolded together (very similar to the RB80 setup) and will have an O2 bottle in addition to this. That way the regs are basically the same as the OC system. I believe (and I'm sure Graham will correct me) that they are currently using a pair of 7s on the CCR.


Ok fair enough. That makes more sense to me, especially having seen that setup on the RB80. My next question to you then John (ignoring the rest of the thread!) would be do you where is the O2 bottle located and how large is it? The JJ is a pretty neat and tidy unit. Unless it's a small one stashed under the base in the stand, surely it will have to be either side slung or "ponyed" onto the case... but won't that then mean it's sticking up somewhat and thus not ideally located for motoring in caves?
Just trying to picture it in my mind!

Gary
13-12-2013, 09:15 AM
If anybody wants to learn more PM me and lets go for a dive

I believe we have 3 spaces on the 27th :)

Chris Brown
13-12-2013, 09:22 AM
Anyway I am not playing anymore

Why not? Im interested and Im not being judgemental either. Neither am I saying its wrong.

In OC config - Im all about GUE methodology. Makes sense in warm to temperate caves in particular.

CCR - We only have the PSCR to draw from at this point, but as I said - Im interested to see if GUE gets it right where UTD clearly didn't.

I couldn't give a shit about OOG and long hose donate TBH, Im more interested in approach to rigging the actual machine for good trim and buoyancy and what strategies you come up with to mitigate and manage CO2 and floods

James-S
13-12-2013, 09:35 AM
Ok fair enough. That makes more sense to me, especially having seen that setup on the RB80. My next question to you then John (ignoring the rest of the thread!) would be do you where is the O2 bottle located and how large is it? The JJ is a pretty neat and tidy unit. Unless it's a small one stashed under the base in the stand, surely it will have to be either side slung or "ponyed" onto the case... but won't that then mean it's sticking up somewhat and thus not ideally located for motoring in caves?
Just trying to picture it in my mind!

I don't know about for the GUE course, but whenever I've seen photos on facebook of GUE divers using a JJ in that kind of config, it seems to have been the 2 7l tanks either side of the scrubber, manifolded and upright, obviously, and then, I assume a 3l although possibly smaller, inverted O2 cylinder mounted so it fits in the slot in between the right hand 7l cylinder and the scrubber. I saw basically this on an Inspo the other weekend and it looked like the best solution if you want 2 backmounted dil cylinders as well as back mounted O2.

flyingfisheye
13-12-2013, 09:47 AM
Just out of interest, if you have all the weight mounted to the unit and no weight that can be dropped in a hurry how do you cope with a loop flood.

Come on Graham_HK, at least stay and answer the questions! how do you dive from a Rib? with a weight belt and stage you can pass that up to the guys in the boat bit by bit.

Not one huge heavy bit of kit that then gets damaged?

I know due to the GUE approach they leave them self open for probing, bit like BSAC of old. But the higher you place your self the further you have to fall when it goes wrong.

Regards

James-S
13-12-2013, 09:50 AM
Just out of interest, if you have all the weight mounted to the unit and no weight that can be dropped in a hurry how do you cope with a loop flood.

Come on Graham_HK, at least stay and answer the questions! how do you dive from a Rib? with a weight belt and stage you can pass that up to the guys in the boat bit by bit.

Not one huge heavy bit of kit that then gets damaged?

I know due to the GUE approach they leave them self open for probing, bit like BSAC of old. But the higher you place your self the further you have to fall when it goes wrong.

Regards

I think the argument against that would be the same as what it is against boots on twinsets and sidemount open water diving. While it might make life easier on the surface, you should select the kit that makes the most sense in the water during the dive, and then make it work on the surface, rather than making life easier on the surface in order to compromise the actual dive. Just a guess, mind.

BTS
13-12-2013, 09:58 AM
.

Anyway I am not playing anymore - you guys can busily take out of context, misquote, misrepresent and fill your boots with preconceptions and assumptions.

I'll be out diving - I don't have to justify the way I dive to anyone but who I am diving with. I do it that way because it makes sense to me, for the diving I do and because I enjoy it that way.



Rough translation....

It's my ball and I'm taking it in.

So even you don't know who gave the GUE gurus their CCR tickets?

flyingfisheye
13-12-2013, 10:00 AM
I think the argument against that would be the same as what it is against boots on twinsets and sidemount open water diving. While it might make life easier on the surface, you should select the kit that makes the most sense in the water during the dive, and then make it work on the surface, rather than making life easier on the surface in order to compromise the actual dive. Just a guess, mind.

I can see that, but to see some old fella struggle on a rib to pull my CCR in full of weight etc and then watch them drop it down on the deck can cause a bit of a concern. Also I made the mistake of catching a twin set that did not have boots on as it fell ( not my twin set) leaning against the side of the boat and it rolled due to passing other boat's wake. i know have a permanently damaged bicep ligament, due to over extension of the arm.

If your weight is perfect and you have a loop flood, how do you dump any fixed weight to regain the lost buoyancy?

Regards

Major Clanger
13-12-2013, 10:01 AM
So as per usual nobody can tell me how they are going to carry enough gas to do a 100m dive (with enough deep gas to get 2 of us back to the first gas switch). Why would I want to use a different set up at 50m as 100m btw? We start with a sensible foundation and build from there - we don't ahve to reinvent the wheel everytime the dives go up a notch.

What is laughable is that the consensus here is that GUE should dive with tiny dil bottles, donate from a stage because that is what everybody else is doing ...

Also its hysterical that the whole system is going to fall apart because of the long hose ... and one old youtube of some students practising on an RB80 (by looks of site 1st day of class).

The general wisdom is that you can pull a reg out from a stage faster than long hose deploy (based on your huge knowledge gained from myths of poorly practised divers and watching one video). Good luck with stage deployment that:
- stage deployment has a habit of getting snagged and even hoses clipped in
- you have to ID stage
- you have to swim around with a live reg that will drain the stage on a scooter
- you are talking about handing off steel stages (no effect on buoyancy or weighting for sure)
- might not contain a reasonable volume of gas
- may infact be turned off and first stage get dislodged during deployment (thats going to be fun for your OOG diver)

You seem to have formed the opinion that every ccr diver in the uk was trained by Edward Scissorhands and is an accident waiting to happen to their buddy every time they jump in the water. LLRR, bov connection and tuned down regs as one solution negate most of your comments and in the unlikely scenario any may occur, on balance still offer a better solution than the alternative being put forward.

So, a buddy has or is trying to bail off his rb and unable to get or is rejecting his own bailout. How likely is it to happen??? This scenario is typical of a CO2 hit and, apart from a flood or loss of cells, the only reasons why a full bailout would be required. How will a hog make that any easier to manage in OW???

Banana Joe
13-12-2013, 10:03 AM
If your weight is perfect and you have a loop flood, how do you dump any fixed weight to regain the lost buoyancy?

I have a 3kg weight belt, wing, drysuit and two SMB's; there are a few options.

RE RIBS: Diving is supposed to be fun, I don't consider diving off a RIB fun. That may be my limited experience shining through though.

Regards, Joe

GLOC
13-12-2013, 10:06 AM
GUE's stance on CCR - Page 6 (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/dir/430334-gues-stance-ccr-6.html#post6886714)


Greetings,
I am sorry to be late to the party. I have been expecting some speculation regarding GUE’s CCR evaluations and I appreciate reading some of your ideas. Contrary to the insinuation of some, my personal interest in CCR is not financially inspired. I have been interested in CCR as long as rebreathers in general, having started in 1995, diving SCR and CCR units since that time. I can understand how people with no personal rebreather experience (and/or CCR) can struggle to rationalize legitimate motivations for diving CCRs but this lack of experience makes some assertions appear naive. Of course that lack of experience doesn’t necessarily make their concerns irrelevant but it does complicate productive conversations. Creating a platform where our experiences can be shared in a useful way is one of several reasons for GUE’s beta CCR program.

As pertains to the risk of our considered path, we must acknowledge a trade-off with most choices. ALL RB diving (CCR and SCR) immediately increases complexity which is debatably useful depending on the dive in question. The value of RB diving becomes more obvious in long or deep dives but can also vary with a range of other parameters. As a person with significant RB80 experience, I can speak from real-world experience about the benefits of that system. In my opinion many claims against the RB80 are as naive as those made against CCR. In any case, even lots of RB80 experience is insufficient when comparing SCR to CCR as they are different systems with attendant risks and benefits.

An oversimplified view is to profess that CCR is extremely complicated. A CCR is actually a pretty simple device when you take the time to learn about its operation. A more useful basis for evaluation would be to consider the reliability of CCR. This latter aspect regarding a proper evaluation of reliable, safe operation during CCR diving is the primary reason we expanded beyond covert experiments with CCR.

Robust CCR experience was not a priority in the past because we had many other projects to complete. We were busy building a global infrastructure and found semi-closed units very capable while targeting a range of projects. Moreover, long and deep caves with mostly square profiles promise the least compelling value for CCR. Cheap Helium and robust support teams as well as an immature rebreather industry further discouraged CCR as a priority during the late 1990s and early 2000.

The rebreather industry still has some growing pains ahead but the potential value of CCR for an organization with long-term global exploration /conservation projects is obvious to anyone with knowledge and experience in their use. The various reasons this is true will take time to outline capably and they are part of another article I am currently drafting. For the time being I will stick with an overview of GUE’s current evaluations.

From my perspective the most useful opinions are grounded in robust knowledge and experience. So, for the last five years we have been very carefully studying the CCR industry along with various RB units and, of course, the accidents. Nearly four years ago I requested our senior trainers begin openly exploring CCR diving. After hundreds of hours of diving we agreed the experience has been positive. But we have taken a long view and I decided that a larger user base would be needed in order to evaluate during more expansive testing. Richard Lundgren graciously volunteered to spearhead a CCR beta program which we have been developing and testing over the last 18 months.

We used the GUE CCR beta program to test convictions formed from many years of diving. The students were carefully selected, using GUE instructors who were also able to nominate experienced tech 2 divers. I picked novice RB users and experts as well as advocates and detractors. These evaluations are helping build small communities of experienced GUE CCR divers. This developing group is well positioned to help the organization evaluate the value, safety and integration issues associated with CCR diving.

It is true these test classes are using the JJCCR but it would not be accurate to say we have “selected” this unit. We have solid experience diving the unit and it represents a good collection of several key ingredients (more on this later) including JJCCR reps that are friendly and supportive. It is hard to envision GUE classes (and resulting global projects) that do not include reasonable standardization so we are have been testing our classes on one unit. Meanwhile, we continue to evaluate the details and scope of possible CCR standardization.

Some might say we are moving too fast and others will complain we are moving too slowly. Some people prefer we do not move at all. Regardless of your opinion I hope you can see that we are trying to move responsibly. Many hundreds of hours have gone into our evaluations and many hundreds more will follow.

To this day I continue diving my RB80 and maintain it is a powerful tool. I would argue CCR is also a powerful tool. I suspect the risks of both systems can be more or less managed. The “more or less” part of that qualification lies at the heart of our efforts. Either way I would assert that making uninformed decisions in either direction is irresponsible.

I hope to be doing demanding and unique dives over many years to come. Any tool that enables these dives or supports our global mission is something I take seriously. I also take seriously my responsibility to our community and am inclined to move methodically when making such assessments.

Best wishes to everyone,
Jarrod

Doesn't address the specific equipment concerns, but does provide a bigger picture.

Paul, regarding CCR qualifications. Richard Lundgren was diving the Inspo during some of the initial development work when there probably wasn't a course to be taught on!

Regards

Major Clanger
13-12-2013, 10:11 AM
I have a 3kg weight belt, wing, drysuit and two SMB's; there are a few options.

RE RIBS: Diving is supposed to be fun, I don't consider diving off a RIB fun. That may be my limited experience shining through though.

Regards, Joe

I tend to agree wrt diving an rb off a rhib that's cramped and diving is based on a spread group of waves going in but in the right situation and with the right boat can be alright. I ad to dive in the Canaries to find that out.

flyingfisheye
13-12-2013, 10:13 AM
GUE's stance on CCR - Page 6 (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/dir/430334-gues-stance-ccr-6.html#post6886714)



Doesn't address the specific equipment concerns, but does provide a bigger picture.

Paul, regarding CCR qualifications. Richard Lundgren was diving the Inspo during some of the initial development work when there probably wasn't a course to be taught on!

Regards


Gareth, Why did the not speak to Kevin Gurr? he tried to look at the risk of CCR diving and minimise it then produced the Sentinel, possible GUE should consider that CCR as well as the JJ.

After all non would question Kevin's credential!

Regards

nickb
13-12-2013, 10:16 AM
Gareth, Why did the not speak to Kevin Gurr? he tried to look at the risk of CCR diving and minimise it then produced the Sentinel, possible GUE should consider that CCR as well as the JJ.

After all non would question Kevin's credential!I'm not seeing any winkys but I can only assume this is a joke.

Major Clanger
13-12-2013, 10:17 AM
GUE's stance on CCR - Page 6 (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/dir/430334-gues-stance-ccr-6.html#post6886714)



Doesn't address the specific equipment concerns, but does provide a bigger picture.

Paul, regarding CCR qualifications. Richard Lundgren was diving the Inspo during some of the initial development work when there probably wasn't a course to be taught on!

Regards

Who are the students/instructors in the UK participating in the beta programme and what is their experience of rb diving outside of training?

BTS
13-12-2013, 10:17 AM
RE RIBS: Diving is supposed to be fun, I don't consider diving off a RIB fun. That may be my limited experience shining through though.



RIBs are great fun Joe... Though I wouldn't do a dive deeper than 45M from one if there were another option...

BTS
13-12-2013, 10:19 AM
Paul, regarding CCR qualifications. Richard Lundgren was diving the Inspo during some of the initial development work when there probably wasn't a course to be taught on!

Regards

So neither of them hold tickets? :OMG:

;)

Banana Joe
13-12-2013, 10:22 AM
I'm sure they are as 100's of 1000's of dives are done from them each year. Like I say, I haven't done that much RIB diving but I much prefer having the deck space offered by a hardboat. Having seen a couple of incidents I cannot see how they would have been handed so effectively in a RIB. As I would only take a single on a RIB my personal limit would be 30m.

Cheers, Joe

Off topic!


RIBs are great fun Joe... Though I wouldn't do a dive deeper than 45M from one if there were another option...

jturner
13-12-2013, 10:30 AM
I don't know about for the GUE course, but whenever I've seen photos on facebook of GUE divers using a JJ in that kind of config, it seems to have been the 2 7l tanks either side of the scrubber, manifolded and upright, obviously, and then, I assume a 3l although possibly smaller, inverted O2 cylinder mounted so it fits in the slot in between the right hand 7l cylinder and the scrubber. I saw basically this on an Inspo the other weekend and it looked like the best solution if you want 2 backmounted dil cylinders as well as back mounted O2.

That's what I was guessing would be the solution but it would make the O2 shutdown a bit tricky in a confined space IMHO, especially as it would need to be done quickly and it is unlikely that it would be allowed to be left with the valve only half a turn on. I was wondering if they'd come up with anything better/different/more cunning!

Banana Joe
13-12-2013, 10:33 AM
Shutting down the O2 is fine. Again it all comes down to muscle memory, flow check every 5 minutes or so soon ingrains exactly where all your twiddly bits are.

Cheers, Joe


That's what I was guessing would be the solution but it would make the O2 shutdown a bit tricky in a confined space IMHO, especially as it would need to be done quickly and it is unlikely that it would be allowed to be left with the valve only half a turn on. I was wondering if they'd come up with anything better/different/more cunning!

Foggy
13-12-2013, 10:36 AM
NB: Remember it's not friday ;)

Not only is it now Friday,.........its Friday the 13th :Kiss:

jturner
13-12-2013, 10:36 AM
Shutting down the O2 is fine. Again it all comes down to muscle memory, flow check every 5 minutes or so soon ingrains exactly where all your twiddly bits are.


Really? So you spot the solenoid jam, reach round, grab the fully open valve and close it completely in less than a second or two? Wow! I'm impressed. Ninja skills indeed.

James-S
13-12-2013, 10:38 AM
Really? So you spot the solenoid jam, reach round, grab the fully open valve and close it completely in less than a second or two? Wow! I'm impressed. Ninja skills indeed.

Surely that comment could just as easily be said to every RB diver no matter where your valves are?

Banana Joe
13-12-2013, 10:41 AM
Come on now! Unless the valve is only opened by 1/4 of a turn that is never going to happen!

I knew where my O2 valve was when my unit was standard, I knew where it was then I had 7's of dil and O2 valve up and I know where it is now. Can you close it that quickly?

Cheers, Joe


Really? So you spot the solenoid jam, reach round, grab the fully open valve and close it completely in less than a second or two? Wow! I'm impressed. Ninja skills indeed.

jturner
13-12-2013, 10:46 AM
Surely that comment could just as easily be said to every RB diver no matter where your valves are?


Come on now! Unless the valve is only opened by 1/4 of a turn that is never going to happen!

I knew where my O2 valve was when my unit was standard, I knew where it was then I had 7's of dil and O2 valve up and I know where it is now. Can you close it that quickly?

Like you say, unlikely I could do it unless it was only a 1/2 turn open... but given that this is a GUE course, all valves will be either open fully or closed fully. I'm sure someone who knows far more about GUE will be happy to correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure that is the policy regarding valves and I doubt this will be an exception to the "rule". Sorry for the confusion! Now I know I sure as hell couldn't do that with it fully open in the standard position! Maybe I'm just getting old and creaky!

Banana Joe
13-12-2013, 10:51 AM
My O2 and dil valves are always fully open. I can shut any of them off within 5 seconds, I consider this to be quick enough.

Cheers, Joe


all valves will be either open fully or closed fully.

GLOC
13-12-2013, 10:53 AM
Who are the students/instructors in the UK participating in the beta programme and what is their experience of rb diving outside of training?

What do you care?

Bearing in mind that this programme is a global programme, wouldn't a better question be who in the world is participating? Or is it because you want to see if you know them personally and then ask them direct questions?

Much easy to ask a direct question of a person than an organisation, and then when that person doesn't reply, you can say they are either hiding from the question, or don't know.

The majority of the discussion on here is sound, the questions and comments which are aimed at discrediting those behind the programme I find somewhat annoying and disrespectful. This programme wasn't put together overnight but that doesn't mean it can't be improved - it is still a beta programme after all!!

It has been developed over a number of years with different units/configurations examined not just the JJ; just because the JJ is the unit of choice for the beta programme, doesn't mean it will be the final choice for the GUE CCR programme. If you are going to provide a syllabus which allows the operation of a CCR in a GUE environment to be assessed, you have to down-select at some point and isolate those variables.

Regards

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Chris Brown
13-12-2013, 10:54 AM
I'm not seeing any winkys but I can only assume this is a joke.

JJ spent a lot of time with kevin. I know they were looking at the Sentinel some years back. probably just part of the overall scheme of things.

The GUR guys have a lot of hours on a lot of different units and have liaised with a fair few manufacturers

smudger
13-12-2013, 11:10 AM
What do you care?

Bearing in mind that this programme is a global programme, wouldn't a better question be who in the world is participating? Or is it because you want to see if you know them personally and then ask them direct questions?

Much easy to ask a direct question of a person than an organisation, and then when that person doesn't reply, you can say they are either hiding from the question, or don't know.

The majority of the discussion on here is sound, the questions and comments which are aimed at discrediting those behind the programme I find somewhat annoying and disrespectful. This programme wasn't put together overnight but that doesn't mean it can't be improved - it is still a beta programme after all!!

It has been developed over a number of years with different units/configurations examined not just the JJ; just because the JJ is the unit of choice for the beta programme, doesn't mean it will be the final choice for the GUE CCR programme. If you are going to provide a syllabus which allows the operation of a CCR in a GUE environment to be assessed, you have to down-select at some point and isolate those variables.

Regards

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

TBH too much speculation atm.
I can't imagine that it will be done lightly I would honestly like to see the set up as I did manage to get to play with an RB80 and although it has some weak points (IMO) overall it was sound there is never going to be a all agency approved way it seems so why don't we see the outcome and then make a choice?

dwhitlow
13-12-2013, 11:13 AM
The majority of the discussion on here is sound, the questions and comments which are aimed at discrediting those behind the programme I find somewhat annoying and disrespectful. This programme wasn't put together overnight but that doesn't mean it can't be improved - it is still a beta programme after all!!

It has been developed over a number of years with different units/configurations examined not just the JJ; just because the JJ is the unit of choice for the beta programme, doesn't mean it will be the final choice for the GUE CCR programme. If you are going to provide a syllabus which allows the operation of a CCR in a GUE environment to be assessed, you have to down-select at some point and isolate those variables.
I wonder whether the changes required by GUE will affect CE and whether there will be a Halcyon version of the selected unit to overcome CE, consistency and the supply through trained instructors.

nickb
13-12-2013, 11:15 AM
JJ spent a lot of time with kevin. I know they were looking at the Sentinel some years back.I'm well-aware of that. It was the flavour-of-the-month CCR at the time. But things have changed - although the piss-poor customer service from VR remains the same, apparently.

Chris Brown
13-12-2013, 11:18 AM
I'm well-aware of that. It was the flavour-of-the-month CCR at the time. But things have changed - although the piss-poor customer service from VR remains the same, apparently.

Ok, cool. It would have probably made more sense if I'd quoted an earlier post asking about which ccr people were involved


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notdeadyet
13-12-2013, 11:19 AM
JJ spent a lot of time with kevin. I know they were looking at the Sentinel some years back. probably just part of the overall scheme of things.

The GUR guys have a lot of hours on a lot of different units and have liaised with a fair few manufacturers

Fookin hell there's an endorsement. Did he get off his deckchair during it?

If we ever meet I'll tell you about my big name's RB course I did.

Britain's top expedition diver Monty says, don't forget.

Here's a smiley just for Nick :D (but I'm faking it).

ebt
13-12-2013, 11:23 AM
I'm well-aware of that. It was the flavour-of-the-month CCR at the time. But things have changed - although the piss-poor customer service from VR remains the same, apparently.

flavour of the hype cycle more like ;)

The GUE guys have been considering CCR for a while. Personally i think thats a good thing, decide in haste, repent at leisure and all that.

Will be interesting to see how things pan out, but for the masses i think we need to remember GUE see CCR as an expedition tool. talk of hauling it back into a rib is a tad off base

Major Clanger
13-12-2013, 11:30 AM
My O2 and dil valves are always fully open. I can shut any of them off within 5 seconds, I consider this to be quick enough.

Cheers, Joe

Boom scenario on my 02 at 8 ATA, I want it shut in less than 5 seconds.

Banana Joe
13-12-2013, 11:33 AM
Why? Because you are instantly going to go bang?

Cheers, Joe


Boom scenario on my 02 at 8 ATA, I want it shut in less than 5 seconds.

Major Clanger
13-12-2013, 11:33 AM
What do you care?



Curiosity, it gives gravitas knowing who might involved, or do you know something more and are being protective because those involved have little relative experience of mainstream rb diving. I don't know any overseas instructors or typically dive overseas, hence the local interest and no intention of discrediting anyone. However, if they make a rod for their own back that's hardly my fault. Actually, the personal touch often takes the heat out of these things because we know the individuals and not just talking about some semi-faceless corporation.

swampy
13-12-2013, 11:38 AM
My question would be why you'd need the valves any further open than "just enough" on rebreather... it has no impact on the WOB and it getting spun shut isn't a big issue either

Woz
13-12-2013, 11:39 AM
you have to down-select at some point and isolate those variables.


http://thehoopla.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/bullshit-meter-2.jpg

Major Clanger
13-12-2013, 11:40 AM
Why? Because you are instantly going to go bang?

Cheers, Joe

Does this really need explaining?

flyingfisheye
13-12-2013, 12:11 PM
I have been thinking about this,

With GUE the kit is standard and the methods employed across the diving area, i.e. cave, wrecks and open sea. Easily transferable skills which has to be commended.

But CCr is not OC

So if a CCR diver diving with another CCR diver who has to get of their loop I guess they will go to their bale out? If they then have a problem with that I guess they would need some of your gas?

but the idea of the ccr diver with the working unit breathing in closing their DSV, holding their breath passing the LH over their head then off to their buddy CCR and then popping their secondary reg in their mouth, couple of breaths then breathing in, finding the their loop checking the PPo2 then going back on their loop. seams rather adding to the task in hand, when pulling out a reg off a bale out and passing that to the other diver would be far easier.

We are looking at risk management here, what is the chance of that happing both CCR diver both have bale out Diver "A" bales out and the runs out of gas as well. Is it that we are going to far down the what if patens, after all there should be a gas plan and that should cover the dive, shouldn't it, are we now going to dive with Bale out for the bale out etc , etc.

When we fly commercially do we wear a parachute? we accept that the plane has enough thrust in the bale out engine or engines.

We need to look at the Aim of the course, the level of the course etc.

After all this has been asked in a general forum, and therefore we are all allowed a opinion.

Regards

notdeadyet
13-12-2013, 01:29 PM
Why would I want to use a different set up at 50m as 100m btw?

Because it's a 50m dive? I don't go up Ingleborough hill in the same kit I used in the Alps.


What is laughable is that the consensus here is that GUE should dive with tiny dil bottles, donate from a stage because that is what everybody else is doing ...


I'm not a natural conformist but if you take a good few thousand people over a few hundred thousand dives and they all arrive at the same solution... Kind of suggests that the simple answer might actually work ok for the minimal times it's actually needed.

I'm a great believer in simplicity saving your life. I've yet to see one of these manifolded setups that looked anything near simple. I'll take my chances without.

deepunderground
13-12-2013, 03:08 PM
Maybe they will go alpinist....!!!!

Well it is friday !

Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk

flyingfisheye
13-12-2013, 03:33 PM
Is this a long hose? I used one of these for a couple of years many moons ago.

180 ft Surface Supplied Dive - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0nHGbyknLw)

gobfish1
13-12-2013, 03:50 PM
So as per usual nobody can tell me how they are going to carry enough gas to do a 100m dive (with enough deep gas to get 2 of us back to the first gas switch). Why would I want to use a different set up at 50m as 100m btw? We start with a sensible foundation and build from there - we don't ahve to reinvent the wheel everytime the dives go up a notch.

What is laughable is that the consensus here is that GUE should dive with tiny dil bottles, donate from a stage because that is what everybody else is doing ...

Also its hysterical that the whole system is going to fall apart because of the long hose ... and one old youtube of some students practising on an RB80 (by looks of site 1st day of class).

The general wisdom is that you can pull a reg out from a stage faster than long hose deploy (based on your huge knowledge gained from myths of poorly practised divers and watching one video). Good luck with stage deployment that:
- stage deployment has a habit of getting snagged and even hoses clipped in
- you have to ID stage
- you have to swim around with a live reg that will drain the stage on a scooter
- you are talking about handing off steel stages (no effect on buoyancy or weighting for sure)
- might not contain a reasonable volume of gas
- may infact be turned off and first stage get dislodged during deployment (thats going to be fun for your OOG diver)

your the one swinging your dick m8 .

show me what you got , pull that 4skin back and spit out your 100m dive plan , on your jj with the back mount 7l s

ps
no one is telling you your doing it right or wrong ,
no ones having a pop at the rb80 set up ,

and im sure it was you that kicked off with the bad mouthing ,

ill give you a starter i can get myself back from 100m with 3 .side cans , solo , ie no buddy no shot or deco station , wreck dive that is , tho i do dive in a two and if im diving 80m or more i like a team of 3 ,

ps

make it as slick as you like ,

Janos
13-12-2013, 05:07 PM
So as per usual nobody can tell me how they are going to carry enough gas to do a 100m dive (with enough deep gas to get 2 of us back to the first gas switch).

You asked the question at 0130. You posted the above at 0900. Give people a chance!

I carry gas for 100m dives easily enough. It's three stages. What's the problem?

Janos

Janos
13-12-2013, 05:19 PM
I've also spent the day practicing bailout drills, and donating and receiving gas from an OOG diver.

Deploying from my stage was quick and intuitive - and far quicker than from the hoglooped reg my buddy was using. Restowing is a a bit longer, but not particularly troublesome. I unclip the rear clip and swing the stage out in front of me, and it's easy enough to stow.

Janos

Chris Brown
13-12-2013, 05:19 PM
You asked the question at 0130. You posted the above at 0900. Give people a chance!

I carry gas for 100m dives easily enough. It's three stages. What's the problem?

Janos

Doing it within the GUE team gas share protocols. As there are no ccr standards yet, I'm assuming there's no fast bail out, so it wouldn't surprise me if calcs are being done at normal 'keep it calm it's not an emergency if you have gas in your mouth' ascent rates that are used in OC out of gas scenarios.

This results in a shit ton more gas required, Especially if you don't use a planner that has a fast bail out / decent bailout gas calcs and you are always carrying enough for you and a buddy to exit.

Please can a GUE CCR diver confirm if this is the case?

It could also be the case that minor issues are not currently fixed on the unit and result in a 'controlled' bail / out such as a disagreeing sensor.

Of course, we don't bail out plan like that do we? We take enough for number one and either fix it, deal with it or we get a co2 hit and get the f**k out of there! Personally I blow off all deep and padded stops too.

I wonder his GUE will approach all this stuff?

Fascinating. there could be some useful debate here!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

Rich Walker
13-12-2013, 05:44 PM
How much bail out? I carry enough gas to get me to my first gas switch, plus one half, assuming an elevated breathing rate. Others are using double what they would need, again assuming elevated breathing rate. No formal standards yet exist.

Deco gas, well, believe it or not, I'm carrying exactly what I need, no extra. And I'm well aware how to do a fast table, thanks ;-)

Rich

ebt
13-12-2013, 06:01 PM
I'm well aware how to do a fast table, thanks ;-)

So is every diver I've ever met. It starts with putting food down and then moving bloody fast if you want to see any of it.

MikeF
13-12-2013, 08:28 PM
So as per usual nobody can tell me how they are going to carry enough gas to do a 100m dive (with enough deep gas to get 2 of us back to the first gas switch).


I may have misread the above so please excuse me if I am barking up the wrong tree



think of the same dive done OC and CC and a diver loses either back gas or deco gas

OC dive two divers = two lots of back gas and two lots of deco stages.

case 1: Diver A loses his backgas but diver B carries enough for two and gives a long hose off his twinset to Diver A to get to the first gas switch. diver A then switches to his next gas and they both carry on.

case 2: Diver A loses one of his deco mixes on ascent so diver B carries enough of each deco mix to get them both to the next gas switch / surface

CC dive two divers diving solo mentality (fairly common as no one with any sense relies on anyone else to get home if they can help it) = two lots of gas to do the whole dive CC plus two lots of gas to complete the dive OC in the event of an issue with one rebreather.

case 1: Diver A loses loop so goes onto his own bailout. Diver B still has his rebreather to complete dive and an independant bailout that will get either of them home from worst point in dive. so you now have twice as much bailout as one diver requires

case 2: Diver A has bailed and loses one of his deco mixes. Diver B doesn't need his as he's decoing out on the loop and gives it to Diver A. so in effect each is carrying enough gas to get himself and his buddy out

on CC there are two of you, each of you has a rebreather, plus each of you has enough OC gas to get himself home or his buddy. As each diver has two independant ways to get home (rebreather and bailout), between the two divers there are now four independant ways of getting home (more ways if you get fancy and start SCR and back on the loop on pure O2 at 6m and the rest of that bollocks) as opposed to OC where you had two divers that had one way home each and doubled up on gas to give their buddy a second way home.

It looked to me like you were previously carrying twice as much gas as you needed to cater for the failure of 1 out of two sets of life support equipment. So why would each diver still want to carry enough deep gas to get two divers back to the first gas switch on OC when you are doing a CC dive? Are you now planning for the simultaneous failure of three out of four sets of life support equipment, i.e. two rebreathers and one set of OC deep bailout?

swampy
13-12-2013, 08:56 PM
And... pre-empting any disaster chain scenarios, I don't believe even GUE plan for both divers losing their back gas....

Janos
13-12-2013, 10:00 PM
MikeF is right.

2 x CCR divers = enough kit to get four divers back to the surface.
2 x OC divers (GUE style) = not enough kit to get four divers back to the surface.

Janos

Rich Walker
13-12-2013, 10:09 PM
Guys,

We're all capable of calculating how much gas we have. And we're not expecting to have a full OC loss of gas in addition to a loop.

The question, which consistently remains unanswered to me is how much bailout is enough. There's not much calculating you can do to prove or disprove an amount, as the worst case scenario is a bad CO2 hit, and then you're never really sure how much you'd huff. So a conservative calculation, plus a bit more (1.5 or 2 times) is a good starting point.

The ability to donate gas in a CCR team is never likely to be an emergency scenario, which is even unlikely on OC tech diving, so a slower deployment is of no real concern to me. Mixed teams are a different story and even though not recommended, are going to happen like it or not.

Rich

gobfish1
13-12-2013, 10:09 PM
MikeF is right.

2 x CCR divers = enough kit to get four divers back to the surface.
2 x OC divers (GUE style) = not enough kit to get four divers back to the surface.

Janos

yes true , but they come in 3s , so catching up ,, :clap:

ebt
13-12-2013, 10:24 PM
The question, which consistently remains unanswered to me is how much bailout is enough.

Nah, its easy, unless you reach the hypercapnia phase, then its the sorta numbers you only see on bankers bonuses.

I honestly don't believe its realistic to plan for hypercapnia. Most folks work out 'enough' then add 'some' to cope with that one. On the bright side, if you're diving with a bunch of other ccr divers, you're usually surrounded by 'shitloads'*.

Im a boring diver, I work on the basis that my breathing rate defines my work rate, not the other way around. That way i stay far away from the co2 demons.




*other si units may be used.

gobfish1
13-12-2013, 11:22 PM
i dont plan gas for a co2 hit , as i will never know what i may need , i do know that no matter how much bottom gas i do take i wont be hanging round to find out , its a rat up a drain pipe time , im gone (wrecks only )

now having said that i see no point in having 4200l of gas on my back that is only good for keeping water out of my lungs , when i only need 1800l off said gas ,

now i know / have read that gue divers like a low ish ppo2 at depth and a shit load of Helium , so im thinking at some piont that 4200 is going to be working against my other problen after bailing out . how to get my arse back on the boat with all deco done , thats my goal ,

im not looking to get back on the boat with 2400 of bottom gas ,

ist been said that big cylinders back mount is one way of doing things ,

i see it somewhat different, i take what i need , and try make what i take work for me more than once ,, ie on board o2 and off board o2 ,

onboard it runs my breather , solenoid valve sticks open i close inboard , and plug in my off board run unit from MAV ,

NOW . them small cylinders are worth shit at 100m oc wise , BUT , once back at 6/3m i can get as shit load of deco out of them
see i get more than one use from my unit set up , and it cost me feek all , bar the Weenie

i dont think 2400l of what ever gue bottom gas is , to be much use to me at 6m do you ,

the long hose stuff im not arsed about , just put,s the gue guys in the same boat as the rest of us , ie passing off something that may or may not work ,

we all have that problem , when we move from one gas to the next , and we try to plan for it , (tho the gue guys seem to be hitting that one twice )

im all for a shit load of gas if in a cave and im sure you could fill a cave up with 50 cylinders to sort the shortfall out

i said in another post id need 3 cylinders to bail out from a 100m dive , but we all need to remember thats not plan a b or c

im not saying my way is the best or its the only way ,

its just my 2p worth ,

MikeF
13-12-2013, 11:39 PM
fair comment and I agree that in the event of any major problem at depth the only way I am headed is up. however, even though it's usually the bailout deco gas qty I carry that determines my runtime not the deep gas, I've had that CO2 moment and having walloped through gas at an average SAC of around 60lpm for the first 5 minutes I personally carry shitloads* of deep bailout compared to what I 'need' with a normal SAC.

*normally defined as a larger qty than 'lots' and usually considered an order of magnitude above 'enough'.

gobfish1
13-12-2013, 11:58 PM
fair comment and I agree that in the event of any major problem at depth the only way I am headed is up. however, even though it's usually the bailout deco gas qty I carry that determines my runtime not the deep gas, I've had that CO2 moment and having walloped through gas at an average SAC of around 60lpm for the first 5 minutes I personally carry shitloads* of deep bailout compared to what I 'need' with a normal SAC.

*normally defined as a larger qty than 'lots' and usually considered an order of magnitude above 'enough'.

hi Mike
im not saying i dont plan in some bigger numbers for bottom bailout gas , but bar the co2 thing a shit load of the wrong gas dont do no one no good

my bottom time plan/ run time may well be 3 different time,s .

100m billy no m8s missed the shot maybe 25mins thats all i can cover
100m with buddy maybe 30mins
100m with buddy and back round the shot could be some what more , thats the nice thing with a ccr its some what Flexible.

mike you run a planner for a dive your thinking about doing ,planner comes back and says you need 1600l
do you then take 4200 , and will that do you , keep in mind its a shit gas to deco out on so your going to need to load up with more cylinder,s , and then cope with all that entails.

maybe take the Zeep as now you cant swim .

let me put is this way , you bail out and make it back to 6m what would you find more useful 2400l of 100m gue back gas or 1000l of o2 ,

and iv not even had a few puff s of 70% drysuit feed yet , as i do like to look slick ,when im hanging off my dsmb. :D:D

Janos
14-12-2013, 12:43 AM
The other nice thing about CCR is that everyone on the boat has full bailout tanks too.

Not relevant in a cave where you have two or three lead divers pushing the turtle. But when I had my full flood on the KISS after 45mins at 60m, I had:

1) My own bailout (2 cylinders, which would have gotten me to the surface)
2) My 2 buddies bailout (2 cylinders each)
3) Another 6 divers spread up the line (2 cylinders each).
4) 2 x drop tanks

Having a problem, bailing off, then having my own bailout, another 16 bottles of gas in the water, plus drop tanks. Well - it's a comforting thing when the loop is shagged.

Janos

BTS
14-12-2013, 01:47 AM
#itsoknoahwillsavetwoofyou

Stuart Keasley
14-12-2013, 08:45 AM
The general wisdom is that you can pull a reg out from a stage faster than long hose deploy (based on your huge knowledge gained from myths of poorly practised divers and watching one video).
Not entirely surprised that you made that comment, however interested to know if you're actually stupid and arrogant enough to believe it, or if it was just said for effect?

In terms of the approach, it seems that GUE are studiously ignoring existing CCR practises and writing their own rule book from a blank sheet (although oddly somewhat constrained by their own OC methods). Sometimes that's a great way to make radical change, taking away the constraints of how things have always been done allows for a completely fresh objective on how things could be done better. However you'd be a fool not to compare your new rule book, once completed, with the very valid wisdom and amassed experience that the traditional rule book was based upon, just to ensure you haven't missed a trick or two ;)

gobfish1
14-12-2013, 10:22 AM
#itsoknoahwillsavetwoofyou

id still not want to use 4200l of 8/70 ,or what ever the standard gas maybe
maybesomeccrdiverswoulddobetterturningupwithmoreth anapairspeedos :clap:

GLOC
14-12-2013, 10:34 AM
id still not want to use 4200l of 8/70 ,or what ever the standard gas maybe
maybesomeccrdiverswoulddobetterturningupwithmoreth anapairspeedos :clap:
I know you are shit with your punctuation and spacing, but this takes the biscuit! ;)

Regards

Garf
14-12-2013, 10:58 AM
I know you are shit with your punctuation and spacing, but this takes the biscuit! ;)

Regards

I think he's having a CO2 hit.

Stew W
14-12-2013, 11:02 AM
In terms of the approach, it seems that GUE are studiously ignoring existing CCR practises and writing their own rule book from a blank sheet (although oddly somewhat constrained by their own OC methods). Sometimes that's a great way to make radical change, taking away the constraints of how things have always been done allows for a completely fresh objective on how things could be done better. However you'd be a fool not to compare your new rule book, once completed, with the very valid wisdom and amassed experience that the traditional rule book was based upon, just to ensure you haven't missed a trick or two ;)


The general impression I got from the presentation was that all these methods had been considered. It has taken well over a decade to find a unit compatible with the GUE platform and that they'd tried pretty much every other unit under the sun before going ahead with the JJ on the beta course.

Maybe I'm wrong and Graham or Rich can better answer such a question. However as a relative newby to GUE I found their rationale and explanations to have had a solid grounding.

gobfish1
14-12-2013, 11:03 AM
I know you are shit with your punctuation and spacing, but this takes the biscuit! ;)

Regards

just a joke m8, :D

Major Clanger
14-12-2013, 11:14 AM
Maybe I'm wrong and Graham or Rich can better answer such a question. However as a relative newby to GUE I found their rationale and explanations to have had a solid grounding.

I'll never be a GUE diver, my mindset isn't compatible with the uniformity and team ethics. However, I agree, from what I know of these things, with respect to bringing a simple and minimalist cave diving approach to open water open circuit configurations. I don't yet see that with the same thinking with respect to adopting cave diving ccr methodology to the open water environment. Hopefully the beta testing will bring out some excellent leaps forward and alternate thinking that others may also wish to consider, such as wider knowledge of ratio deco for ccr. As of yet that remains work in progress.

GLOC
14-12-2013, 11:14 AM
just a joke m8, :D

And the rest of your posts? ;) What's the excuse there? ;)

Regards

gobfish1
14-12-2013, 11:26 AM
And the rest of your posts? ;) What's the excuse there? ;)

Regards

i'll leave for the readers to figure out :wait:

MikeF
14-12-2013, 12:20 PM
hi Mike
im not saying i dont plan in some bigger numbers for bottom bailout gas , but bar the co2 thing a shit load of the wrong gas dont do no one no good

my bottom time plan/ run time may well be 3 different time,s .

100m billy no m8s missed the shot maybe 25mins thats all i can cover
100m with buddy maybe 30mins
100m with buddy and back round the shot could be some what more , thats the nice thing with a ccr its some what Flexible.

mike you run a planner for a dive your thinking about doing ,planner comes back and says you need 1600l
do you then take 4200 , and will that do you , keep in mind its a shit gas to deco out on so your going to need to load up with more cylinder,s , and then cope with all that entails.

maybe take the Zeep as now you cant swim .

let me put is this way , you bail out and make it back to 6m what would you find more useful 2400l of 100m gue back gas or 1000l of o2 ,

and iv not even had a few puff s of 70% drysuit feed yet , as i do like to look slick ,when im hanging off my dsmb. :D:D

I'm right in line with your thinking already. As I'm occasionally a bit of a risk taker (lets face it we all are or we'd all be playing scrabble instead) I too occasionally make a fudgement call on the day, or in the water depending on where I find myself relative to the shot as the clock ticks down, so what follows may be a bit pirate code depending on conditions on the day.


aaanywaaay everyones voodoo and bistro maths is a little different but my thoughts are along the lines of I usually have the following stages sitting about and mix and match runtimes based around these depending on depth, deco and environment:

10L 15/55 @ 250bar so 2500L of deep bailout / Dil (I run my unit off this)
7L 36% @ 250bar 1750L
7L 60% @ 250bar 1750L (no particular preference on 60% vs 80% but that's what's in it at the moment)

(plus an onboard 3L of air and 3L of O2 I can access OC which aren't taken into account in my gas planning, but as you point out can go a long way at 3m or 6m)

I normally work on an SAC of 15lpm which is my starting point and simply look at how long my bailout will last.

lets say a typical 2hr ish runtime (GF30/80) dive at 60m / 65m / 70m / 75m with two stages. The limiting factor is my 1750L of 60%.

so at 60m I'll do 30 minutes max as I require 1730L of 60% to get out. on this dive I only 'need' 1280L of 15/55 to get out but happily swapped out using a 7L of 15/55 giving me 36% of additional gas for a 10L that lets me carry 95% more gas than I 'need'. (yes I'm a knob, despite what I wrote earlier I'd be carrying twice as much deep bailout as I 'need' but it's for me, not getting 2 divers back to the first gas switch :) )

similarly at 65m I can do 26 minutes max as I require 1704L of 60% to get out. on this dive I only 'need' 1420L of 15/55 so am carrying 76% more gas than I 'need' in that 10L. (though I'd call this 25m and have 90% of extra deep mix)

for 70m I'll do 23 minutes max as I require 1708L of 60% to get out. so on this dive I only 'need' 1525L of 15/55 so am carrying 64% more gas than I 'need' in that 10L.

for 75m I'll do 21 minutes max as I require 1730L of 60% to get out. so on this dive I only 'need' 1626L of 15/55 so am carrying 54% more gas than I 'need' in that 10L.

for me more time / depth than that needs an addtional cylinder of bailout or drop tanks or whatever but if I have less than 50% additional deep bailout available I reckon it's a game changer as a CO2 hit shrank my balls considerably and my buddy might suddenly find me paying him much more attention at depth. so I'm sort of aligned with Rich on this one.

At the end of the day there is no right and wrong way to any of this and it all comes down to our own perception of what is acceptable risk, sometimes people lose sight of that fact and get hung up on dogma and become a little fanatical in defending the 'rules' of the agency they trained with instead of regarding those 'rules' as being more like 'guidelines'.

Major Clanger
14-12-2013, 12:26 PM
i'll leave for the readers to figure out :wait:

You're a multi-layered dive guru in my book m8, with a healthy dose of the spike milligans about yerself.

Timw
14-12-2013, 12:59 PM
Call me old fashioned but I want my bail out to be just that - bail out.

Nearly everyone I see using rebreathers use the same basic set up - inboard for the breather and stages for bail out. There are plenty of variations on a theme but it's pretty consistent.
Why? Because it works.

From some of the pro GUE posts there is a sense that they'll do it differently because they can. GUE are coming into the mainstream rebreather field late and are ignoring and criticising established practices - it's that approach that makes them come across as arrogant. That's a shame as they could have a lot to offer but as seen on this thread, it immediately puts peoples backs up.

Simon TW
14-12-2013, 02:19 PM
I'm curious to know where the free shovel is going to be mounted?

BTS
14-12-2013, 02:48 PM
I'm curious to know where the free shovel is going to be mounted?

Surely if they need one they need two..


Or indeed a manifolded double shovel...


http://server88-208-233-121.live-servers.net/faulkscouk/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/142_48AS.jpg

Stew W
14-12-2013, 04:07 PM
Why ask the public about the GUE course then? on an open forum? or was the OP non GUE if so i apologies!



It was a slow day at work ;)

But I was interested to see how the information would be taken. Especially as GUE is perceived as the agency that steers clear of CCRs.

As Graham point out I only have fundies, and am in no position to take the course until they bring it down to Tech 1. But "would others be interested?" that was my general line of thinking.


Yep a guy who has done fundies and returned from GDC now represents the whole organisation on GUEs CCR beta program.



Where's my cheque? :D

Major Clanger
14-12-2013, 04:24 PM
Would others be interested? Which others, by the very nature of the beast it's only going to be an option for a very small and wealthy sector of the diving community. That's my assumption, I'd be interested in a like for like price comparison, taking a starting point of a recently qualified OW diver, as that's the minimum fundies entry level cert iirc, through to a mod 3 or equivalent trained one by the most straight forward route, plus the cost of equipment needs.

Stew W
14-12-2013, 04:35 PM
Would others be interested? Which others, by the very nature of the beast it's only going to be an option for a very small and wealthy sector of the diving community. That's my assumption,

Perhaps, but that is only the beta program. as GLOC pointed out it may come down to Tech 1, which would change how open/ affordable the course was.



I'd be interested in a like for like price comparison, taking a starting point of a recently qualified OW diver, as that's the minimum fundies entry level cert iirc, through to a mod 3 or equivalent trained one by the most straight forward route, plus the cost of equipment needs.

Apples and Oranges. Second hand JJ's are not really available for silly prices like say Classics are.

But if you're going new unit for both pathways. I doubt there would be much in it.

Major Clanger
14-12-2013, 04:54 PM
Perhaps, but that is only the beta program. as GLOC pointed out it may come down to Tech 1, which would change how open/ affordable the course was.



Apples and Oranges. Second JJ's are not really available for silly prices like say Classics are.

But if you're going new unit for both pathways. I doubt there would be much in it.

Tech 1/tech 2 is just the entry level starting point. How many Gue ccr courses would then be required for the equiv to mod 3, surely not just the entry level course.

James-S
14-12-2013, 04:55 PM
Tech 1/tech 2 is just the entry level starting point. How many Gue ccr courses would then be required for the equiv to mod 3, surely not just the entry level course.

Probably will be don't you think? That's what they do for SCR.

Major Clanger
14-12-2013, 04:57 PM
Probably will be don't you think? That's what they do for SCR.

Strap rb on for first time, do a course, dive to 100m, you think?

James-S
14-12-2013, 04:58 PM
Strap rb on, do a course, dive to 100m, you think?

Well, tech 2 is limited to 75 (or 70 can't remember) meters, so not 100. Tech 2+ is 90m I think. But again that's how it works for the RB80. So yeah I'd have thought so.

Stew W
14-12-2013, 05:01 PM
Tech 1/tech 2 is just the entry level starting point. How many Gue ccr courses would then be required for the equiv to mod 3, surely not just the entry level course.

I thought progression was based on hours. Not sure if there is a CCR2.

Major Clanger
14-12-2013, 05:01 PM
Well, tech 2 is limited to 75 (or 70 can't remember) meters, so not 100. Tech 2+ is 90m I think. But again that's how it works for the RB80. So yeah I'd have thought so.


Hmmm, brave.

Major Clanger
14-12-2013, 05:04 PM
I thought progression was based on hours.

So the equivalent is me doing tdi oc trimix, buying a breather, 5 day course and then diving to 100 after x hours with no intermediate courses or check outs :mm:

Stew W
14-12-2013, 05:07 PM
So the equivalent is me doing tdi oc trimix, buying a breather, 5 day course and then diving to 100 after x hours with no intermediate courses or check outs :mm:

The impression I got was that there would be evaluation before progression. I can't quote on this one.

James-S
14-12-2013, 05:08 PM
Hmmm, brave.

Is it? It's no different to someone being a full trimix qualified OC diver, then doing MOD1 and then building up to the depth they were previously doing on OC without doing more courses which I'm guessing wouldn't teach you more than what you could figure out for yourself anyway. That seems to be what a few people on here have done at least!

Steve Clark
14-12-2013, 05:10 PM
The RB80 course is currently for experienced tech 2 divers.

As I understand it, the successful students agree to an experience road map of work-up dives before they will take the unit deep in the ocean or on big cave dives. This seems a pragmatic way forward that may be adopted for CCR.

Nobody with any sense will take a unit to 100m straight after the course, even though they may already be doing OC ascents from similar exposures.

Steve

Major Clanger
14-12-2013, 05:29 PM
Is it? It's no different to someone being a full trimix qualified OC diver, then doing MOD1 and then building up to the depth they were previously doing on OC without doing more courses which I'm guessing wouldn't teach you more than what you could figure out for yourself anyway. That seems to be what a few people on here have done at least!

They do, but not a route sanctioned by any organization I know about. Anyway, Steve has now answered my query, though the details will be interesting for depths to the aforementioned 100m. and to repeat, this is for cost comparison purposes, something individuals may wish to consider if thinking about opting for this route. On the face of it, the business case seems tenuous and cost prohibitive.

BTS
14-12-2013, 05:29 PM
Apples and Oranges.

How so? People use this a lot and most of the times it is a cop out, this is one of those times...

londonsean69
14-12-2013, 05:49 PM
On the face of it, the business case seems tenuous and cost prohibitive.

Has that ever bothered GUE? To them, in my experience, it costs what it costs.

Stew W
14-12-2013, 05:58 PM
How so? People use this a lot and most of the times it is a cop out, this is one of those times...

Well you only half-quoted me. I think I explained it enough in the rest of the quote.

Major Clanger
14-12-2013, 06:08 PM
Has that ever bothered GUE? To them, in my experience, it costs what it costs.

If Masons took up ccr diving it would be with... :D

gobfish1
14-12-2013, 06:58 PM
So the equivalent is me doing tdi oc trimix, buying a breather, 5 day course and then diving to 100 after x hours with no intermediate courses or check outs :mm:

well coming from oc trimix (16 years worth )in 2005 when i went to ccr mod 1, so all in all over 20 years TM .30 years all in ,
i seem to be able to dive to 75m with not to much fuss, im still working on the slick ,

so id have to put my hands up and say if gue went the same way, ie trimix + mod = ccr , i be more than happy . think the like,s of say IANTD and others may not be so happy,



ill not tell the number of mod3 paper work courses iv done by text on my mobile phone, to the red sea lol .

going to a 100m is not hard , getting back can be , only a fool would hit at ton with only a 5 day course under his belt , even with a TM cert

i may take the piss sometimes :D but i dont think iv ever called a gue diver a fool . WELL bar the odd Farmer

Major Clanger
14-12-2013, 07:27 PM
well coming from oc trimix (16 years worth )in 2005 when i went to ccr mod 1, so all in all over 20 years TM .30 years all in ,
i seem to be able to dive to 75m with not to much fuss, im still working on the slick ,

so id have to put my hands up and say if gue went the same way, ie trimix + mod = ccr , i be more than happy . think the like,s of say IANTD and others may not be so happy,



ill not tell the number of mod3 paper work courses iv done by text on my mobile phone, to the red sea lol .

going to a 100m is not hard , getting back can be , only a fool would hit at ton with only a 5 day course under his belt , even with a TM cert

Gotcha Gobbers, just trying to get a handle on same for same course costs. I learnt my breather by youtube so I'm no role model. I also got an internet handicap to play golf in the algarve :angel:

If I'm honest, I'm a bit disappointed. I hoped for a GUE ccr course open to me but that's not going to be the case. Not for the noddy dives, they're doing some great projects I'd like to be part of down on the south coast, knowing much of the associated history. Don't want to be a kevin sat on the deckchair.

gobfish1
14-12-2013, 07:35 PM
Gotcha Gobbers, just trying to get a handle on same for same course costs. I learnt my breather by youtube so I'm no role model.

Zero to Hero back in 92/3 cost me about 1500 in to days money , 3 nitrox cards, 1 deep air , 1 trimix 9 /10 days 10hr, plus a day, most days
one to one so i think i did v well . ps was a real course as well , even got a badge ,:clap:
mod1 cost about 850 in to days money .


no youtube back then,: bummer only had the ZX Spectrum :D

Major Clanger
14-12-2013, 07:43 PM
Zero to Hero back in 92/3 cost me about 1500 in to days money , 3 nitrox cards, 1 deep air , 1 trimix 9 /10 days 10hr, plus days some days
one to one so i think i did v well . ps was a real course as well ,
mod1 cost about 850 in to days money .


no youtube back then,: bummer only had the ZX Spectrum :D

Diving by betamax. Missed a gherkin there.

gobfish1
14-12-2013, 07:44 PM
Diving by betamax. Missed a gherkin there.

Google Image Result for http://blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/zx-plus-3.jpeg (http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?newwindow=1&client=firefox-a&sa=X&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&channel=fflb&tbm=isch&tbnid=X35M-nABx-SlYM:&imgrefurl=http://blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk/blog/reconstructing-a-digital-world-the-zx-spectrum/&docid=yR_j69jUOWvKSM&imgurl=http://blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/zx-plus-3.jpeg&w=1024&h=618&ei=-cGsUvH_OpKrhAeiwoDoDw&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:50,s:0,i:242&iact=rc&page=3&tbnh=150&tbnw=229&start=33&ndsp=20&tx=88&ty=87&biw=1280&bih=637)

Major Clanger
14-12-2013, 07:51 PM
Google Image Result for http://blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/zx-plus-3.jpeg (http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?newwindow=1&client=firefox-a&sa=X&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&channel=fflb&tbm=isch&tbnid=X35M-nABx-SlYM:&imgrefurl=http://blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk/blog/reconstructing-a-digital-world-the-zx-spectrum/&docid=yR_j69jUOWvKSM&imgurl=http://blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/zx-plus-3.jpeg&w=1024&h=618&ei=-cGsUvH_OpKrhAeiwoDoDw&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:50,s:0,i:242&iact=rc&page=3&tbnh=150&tbnw=229&start=33&ndsp=20&tx=88&ty=87&biw=1280&bih=637)

IIRC a modification to the spectrum was putting a bit of wood in the fuse holder to keep it working. Time fades memory. 8080a was my first exposure to programming.

gobfish1
14-12-2013, 08:09 PM
If I'm honest, I'm a bit disappointed. I hoped for a GUE ccr course open to me but that's not going to be the case. Not for the noddy dives, they're doing some great projects I'd like to be part of down on the south coast, knowing much of the associated history. Don't want to be a kevin sat on the deckchair.

Id have to say that would be the last thing you would ever see ,

they have a lot riding on the move to full ccr , if it was me id not want to let it lose . still a few old boys that would love to see them fall flat on threr face ,
im not one of them i have to say ,

its been going on for the last ten years , so im not thinking it will all happen next year or the year after ,

lol in want to fly my DPV in B52 bomber formation and have a wing man ..have a Squadron of Spitfire for cover , lol that life .. :D

Major Clanger
14-12-2013, 08:39 PM
lol in want to fly my DPV in B52 bomber formation and have a wing man ..have a Squadron of Spitfire for cover , lol that life .. :D

MAate, you'd only feel dirty after, lol. Sometimes you have to be a William Robinson, chasing the zepps.

gobfish1
14-12-2013, 08:52 PM
Anyhoooo

looks like this thread is dieing on its feet ,

give me a pm when garf has his jj with the back mount 7l,s

Major Clanger
14-12-2013, 09:07 PM
Anyhoooo

looks like this thread is dieing on its feet ,

give me a pm when garf has his jj with the back mount 7l,s

The guy on the duke last week with his air, 15, pony and packet of cigs'd be interested in this thread, lol.

gobfish1
14-12-2013, 09:36 PM
The guy on the duke last week with his air, 15, pony and packet of cigs'd be interested in this thread, lol.

so sounds like hes done the Fundamentals then , :D you could be right ,

dwhitlow
14-12-2013, 09:44 PM
looks like this thread is dieing on its feet ,

I had great hopes for this thread as something with teh legs of the BSAC HL story but the fundiementalists have gone quiet :(

Maybe they've concluded the established CCR world may not have it all wrong and are waiting for guidance from on high :clap::clap::clap:

Banana Joe
14-12-2013, 10:04 PM
What more is there to say? It's got 7's, a long hose and is better than any of the shite you lot use. :giggle:

Cheers, Joe


I had great hopes for this thread as something with teh legs of the BSAC HL story but the fundiementalists have gone quiet :(

Maybe they've concluded the established CCR world may not have it all wrong and are waiting for guidance from on high :clap::clap::clap:

MikeF
14-12-2013, 10:06 PM
:x: a closed mouth gathers no feet.

Barrygoss
14-12-2013, 10:26 PM
What more is there to say? It's got 7's, a long hose and is better than any of the shite you lot use. :giggle:

Cheers, Joe

It's got 7's on custom hosing and custom bends, and some other custom high pressure hoses
It's got a 3 of O2 mounted behind the 7's on the stack and a golem bov.
And a long hose.
And bailout with regs on them (dir anyone)

B

Banana Joe
14-12-2013, 10:30 PM
You're in!

Cheers, Joe


It's got 7's on custom hosing and custom bends, and some other custom high pressure hoses
It's got a 3 of O2 mounted behind the 7's on the stack and a golem bov.
And a long hose.
And bailout with regs on them (dir anyone)

B

dwhitlow
14-12-2013, 10:31 PM
What more is there to say? It's got 7's, a long hose and is better than any of the shite you lot use. :giggle:

Interesting assertion. Care to explain why it is better?
(:sweat: how do you know what we all have?)

James-S
14-12-2013, 10:32 PM
Interesting assertion. Care to explain why it is better?
(:sweat: how do you know what we all have?)

Something about tongues and cheeks springs to mind...

Barrygoss
14-12-2013, 10:34 PM
You're in!

Cheers, Joe

I've seen the pic's, it's a solution.
I don't believe it's the "dir" solution
And I had that opinion on seeing a hog rig.(that it was "the" solution)

B

Banana Joe
14-12-2013, 10:41 PM
Interesting assertion. Care to explain why it is better?
(:sweat: how do you know what we all have?)

Well I can explain why it suits me?

1. Lots of deep bailout
2. Independent deep bailout
3. One less stage
4. Complete gear familiarity between singles, twins and the RB

Cheers, Joe

James-S
14-12-2013, 10:45 PM
Well I can explain why it suits me?

1. Lots of deep bailout
2. Independent deep bailout
3. One less stage
4. Complete gear familiarity between singles, twins and the RB

Cheers, Joe

Although it does mean that squeezing through the JEL is a tad tighter for you ;)

Barrygoss
14-12-2013, 10:49 PM
Well I can explain why it suits me?

1. Lots of deep bailout
2. Independent deep bailout
3. One less stage
4. Complete gear familiarity between singles, twins and the RB

Cheers, Joe

Mmm. Complete gear familiarity.....
Run us through an OC donate and a ccr donate of the long hose.
Noting any differences between OC/ccr

B

Banana Joe
14-12-2013, 10:50 PM
Although it does mean that squeezing through the JEL is a tad tighter for you ;)

I made it though didn't I? And I wouldn't be shitting myself if I got stuck and had wiggle a little :D

Cheers, Joe

James-S
14-12-2013, 10:51 PM
I made it though didn't I? And I wouldn't be shitting myself if I got stuck and had wiggle a little :D

Cheers, Joe

You did indeed, although I'm not sure your O2 cylinder was in quite the same place when you surfaced as it was when you jumped in :p

Banana Joe
14-12-2013, 10:58 PM
Mmm. Complete gear familiarity.....
Run us through an OC donate and a ccr donate of the long hose.
Noting any differences between OC/ccr

B

Jeez ok...

OC

1. LH in mouth. Back up round neck
2. Take reg in mouth by hose, dip head, punch reg forward
3. Back up in
4. Check buddy is ok
5. Release hose
6. Sort light cord
7. Up

RB

1. Loop in mouth, LH clipped to right chest, back up around neck
2. Close loop with left hand while unclipping LH with right
3. Lift loop with left hand, dip head, punch reg forward
4. Drop loop, back up
5. Check buddy is ok
6. Release hose
7. Sort light cord
8. Stabilise, return to loop
9. Up

Phew, sounds like hard work! It's not...

EDIT: Nothing stops the LH being breathed while it is still clipped off. If it's a pigs ear then just get gas in them and then sort it out.

Cheers, Joe

gobfish1
14-12-2013, 10:59 PM
Well I can explain why it suits me?

1. Lots of deep bailout
2. Independent deep bailout
3. One less stage
4. Complete gear familiarity between singles, twins and the RB

Cheers, Joe

bar the one less stage (as i dont know what your depth and bottom times are)

The rest could be said about all the ccr dives i see ,

Complete familiarity between singles, twins and RB ,
I see my twin,s each time i go in the dive bunker to pick up my RB and my bail outs so i could say im familiar with them to, :D

Banana Joe
14-12-2013, 11:02 PM
The rest could be said about all the ccr dives i see

How is one second stage attached to one first stage attached to one cylinder redundant?

Cheers, Joe

Barrygoss
14-12-2013, 11:06 PM
Jeez ok...

OC

1. LH in mouth. Back up round neck
2. Take reg in mouth by hose, dip head, punch reg forward
3. Back up in
4. Check buddy is ok
5. Release hose
6. Sort light cord
7. Up

RB

1. Loop in mouth, LH clipped to right chest, back up around neck
2. Close loop with left hand while unclipping LH with right
3. Lift loop with left hand, dip head, punch reg forward
4. Drop loop, back up
5. Check buddy is ok
6. Release hose
7. Sort light cord
8. Stabilise, return to loop
9. Up

Phew, sounds like hard work! It's not...

Cheers, Joe

I know the drill ;) OC and ccr are two different beasts, if you want to think OC, dive OC.
That's the point I've taken from this thread.
So, the Gue immediate procedure on a scr fail on a team mate
(it's not a ccr fail, Cos those procedures aren't out yet)
is everyone go OC. Is that for fun or some other reason?

B
Ps, name the confirming bovs that let you shut them using only one left hand...

gobfish1
14-12-2013, 11:11 PM
How is one second stage attached to one first stage attached to one cylinder redundant?

Cheers, Joe

do you have 2 regs on your deco cylinders , no

my deep bail out cylinder with one first stage and one reg , can be used by two divers , just like all my bail out cylinders can .

id need a buddy with a fooked breather fooked bailout and id need to lose my unit to , and i can still have my buddy and i breath off my deep bail out and all the bail out./deco
plus i can still breath all the gas from my in board and off board , and may buddy can do the same for me, he can allso sup up all his on board and off board , and a shit load more stuff we could do . with one first stage and a reg ,

what more would you like to know about ccr diving :clap:

Banana Joe
14-12-2013, 11:15 PM
I know the drill ;) OC and ccr are two different beasts, if you want to think OC, dive OC.
That's the point I've taken from this thread.
So, the Gue immediate procedure on a scr fail on a team mate
(it's not a ccr fail, Cos those procedures aren't out yet)
is everyone go OC. Is that for fun or some other reason?

B

If you knew the drill why did you want me to reiterate it?

It's not for fun, OC has zero task loading and is therefore the best way to deal with someone in jeopardy. When you are trying to find a little shop in a busy high street with a taxi up your ass, you turn the radio down. Going back to light bulbs; if it takes 1 of your 10 lightbulbs to dive the CCR then it's one more bulb you can use while shit is going down. You're going to be off loop for a maximum 2 minutes.

I'll say it again... If you need to donate gas to a buddy on an RB then a multitude of other failures have had to happen. The donation should not be rushed and spontaneous like it is on OC.

Cheers, Joe