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Scimitar Diving
30-09-2013, 10:28 AM
Hi All,
Just picking the brains of the rebreather masses.

I see a lot of rebreather divers coming to us turning up with what seems to be the obligatory 25ltr tub of lime with them wherever they go diving.

My question is:

Would there be a need, if i was to supply smaller quantities for sale in the shop? It would save divers turning up with big tubs of the stuff. If so, what would be the ideal size container? I'm thinking about smallish 2lts sized plastic bottles or something along those lines?

PeterL
30-09-2013, 10:34 AM
Most units take between 2-3L of the stuff, having 3L would be optimum for single fill sales.
Divelime and Molecular Products both sell in 5L kegs if you can get your hands on them and it makes most sense unless you want to get into the repacking game.

The cereal containers with the snap down top / self seals are ideal for easy to fill / fill from but I would imagine your going to be paying a bit for them or having them half inched regularly.

P

NeilB
30-09-2013, 10:53 AM
An Inspiration scrubber takes 2.5kg of lime. So if you sold 2kg bottles I would need two and have 1.5kg knocking about until I got another bottle. If you sold 3kg bottles I would have 0.5kg left over.

A 25kg tub may be large but you never run out on a trip.........

JPTaylor
30-09-2013, 10:58 AM
A 25kg tub may be large but you never run out on a trip.........

The large tub is 20kg of lime.

The Duck
30-09-2013, 11:03 AM
..., if i was to supply smaller quantities for sale in the shop? It would save divers turning up with big tubs of the stuff. If so, what would be the ideal size container? I'm thinking about smallish 2lts sized plastic bottles or something along those lines?

Large hopper filled with 'lime - decant into customer provided receptical, such as scrubber bucket. Charge by weight (a set of scales to measure weight of scrubber bucket empty, re-weigh when full, second weight minus first equals weight of 'lime).

Treerat
30-09-2013, 11:07 AM
If so, what would be the ideal size container? I'm thinking about smallish 2lts sized plastic bottles or something along those lines?

I doubt there ever will be an ideal one - as per the Duck's post, keep it simple.

notdeadyet
30-09-2013, 11:18 AM
If I'm going anywhere where I'll be changing the scrubber then I just decant my lime into a smaller container. 5L water bottles from the supermarket are perfect, when you dump the scrubber then pour it into an empty bottle, mark a line on the side (allow a bit of tolerance) and you've got a perfect measure (or just fill it up and chuck the excess back in the keg when home). Intersorb particularly benefits from this as it can be very dusty and decanting cuts the dust down.

I've seen people use other containers like tupperware type cereal tubs, etc.


Large hopper filled with 'lime - decant into customer provided receptical, such as scrubber bucket. Charge by weight (a set of scales to measure weight of scrubber bucket empty, re-weigh when full, second weight minus first equals weight of 'lime).

I'd be very nervous about using a setup like that. I have a keg of lime, I know it's history, I know its age, I know how it was stored, I know how it has been handled. I'm sure there's probably nothing wrong with it but I just couldn't trust a system like that when it is out of my hands. I know, it's no different to a gas panel, but air or helium isn't going to change because it's been handled wrong and I can analyse my gas before I use it. I can't analyse my lime. Maybe I'm just anal but I like my own, personal lime with me. If I'm going to buy it when away then I'd rather have it sealed in the manufacturer's packaging. Too much uncertainty for me.

jamesp
30-09-2013, 11:28 AM
I would either take a keg for the group or decant into a couple of 5L containers.
I have a couple of ex distilled water ones I kept for the purpose.

Often wondered why AP had not started selling "one fill" packs of lime in a heavy gauge poly bag, as a revenue stream.

Starts sounding a bit like a bog roll though.

notdeadyet
30-09-2013, 11:32 AM
Often wondered why AP had not started selling "one fill" packs of lime in a heavy gauge poly bag, as a revenue stream.

Wasn't there someone selling lime in small bags a few years ago? I vaguely remember getting some from (I think) Intersurgical that was in 1kg packs.

dwhitlow
30-09-2013, 11:48 AM
AP sell lime is the large, 20kg tubs, and pairs of smaller, 4.5kg, plastic bottles.

A.P.Diving Direct (http://www.apdivingdirect.com/int/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=200&osCsid=5c51ba75a11aa2a78711f5ad715fe1d7)

As supplied by AP 4.5kg gives one good fill and most of a second fill. I use those when travelling for a few days but take the big tub for a week away.
A single 4.5kg container would seem a reasonable thing for you to offer.

BTS
30-09-2013, 11:57 AM
I have two 5 ltr containers, I decant from the 20Kg tub into the smaller ones, this is a simple solution and helps on a couple of counts.

1. It is easier to transport and por into the scrubber unit.
2. As it is poured twice, onc einto the smaller container then again into the scrubber it shakes off a lot more dust.

I simply got a 2 Ltr plastic coke bottle, cut the bottom off and use that as a funnel....

You could get a plastic hopper and decant direct to peoples units, you need to makes sure the lime doesn't dry out though and I doubt there will be an awful lot of profit in it, it would be more of a service than an income...

Or.. divers could think outside the box a little {pun intended} and decant their own into more manageble sizes for transportation...

MikeF
30-09-2013, 12:02 PM
costco do a plastic tub of basmati rice that is just the right size to contain two scrubbers worth of lime once you've eaten the rice.

I was heading out the door with one in my hand when mrs F spotted it and became concerned I might somehow cook it and eat it by mistake as it was still labelled basmati rice. She asked me what I had put in the containers, sofnolime I muttered over my shoulder as I jumped in the car. I returned to find she had neatly re-labelled all the spare ones 'softener lime'.

Scimitar Diving
30-09-2013, 01:15 PM
Thanks guys, I think the best solution is just to keep some and then sell it by weight as required. We get asked quite often for it so i'll get some in.

Most divers (quite understandably) would want to keep and control their own cat litter as at least then you know that nobody has messed about with it.

Thanks for the responses.

TTFN

Smudge

PeterL
30-09-2013, 01:18 PM
Thanks guys, I think the best solution is just to keep some and then sell it by weight as required. We get asked quite often for it so i'll get some in.

Most divers (quite understandably) would want to keep and control their own cat litter as at least then you know that nobody has messed about with it.

Thanks for the responses.

TTFN

Smudge

If Carlsberg made dive centres yada yada yada...... :)

Pity they can't make beer but that's not the point.

notdeadyet
30-09-2013, 01:31 PM
If it was me, I'd just buy a few packs of 5kg jerry cans and flog them. You're opening a can of worms for yourself selling by weight. First time someone has a CO2 problem they are going to ask where the lime came from and how long ago the pack was opened, etc. Give them a keg sealed by the manufacturer, saves a lot of headache for everyone. I think otherwise you're making a rod for your own back. Chances are it's going to be someone pushing a scrubber or flooding the loop or something rather than the lime itself but it doesn't stop the pointy finger coming your way. Is it worth it for something with so little profit?

Scimitar Diving
30-09-2013, 02:33 PM
If it was me, I'd just buy a few packs of 5kg jerry cans and flog them. You're opening a can of worms for yourself selling by weight. First time someone has a CO2 problem they are going to ask where the lime came from and how long ago the pack was opened, etc. Give them a keg sealed by the manufacturer, saves a lot of headache for everyone. I think otherwise you're making a rod for your own back. Chances are it's going to be someone pushing a scrubber or flooding the loop or something rather than the lime itself but it doesn't stop the pointy finger coming your way. Is it worth it for something with so little profit?

Very good points and something that I haven't thought about especially in these days of a blame culture. I'm sure you are right.

Sadly we had a diver die on us a couple of years ago. Not our fault etc etc and running the number of divers that we do then you could argue that it was only a matter of time before something horrible eventually happens. Add to that, she was American and in the military makes you look at your safety processes and methods very closely.

Things have changed a lot in the dive scene in the short time that we have been in the industry. A few years ago, with a boat load of divers off to do something a little deeper than the norm then rebreathers where the exception rather than the norm. These days they are very much the norm and for all the right reasons its sure to continue that way.

We have a little shop now and there is no reason that i couldn't stock it. Maybe next season we will have a bigger shop? I think we will start stocking it, just not quite sure how and when and in what quantities.

Thanks for the comments.

Smudge

Scimitar Diving
30-09-2013, 02:34 PM
If Carlsberg made dive centres yada yada yada...... :)

Pity they can't make beer but that's not the point.

Making beer? Now there is an idea :)

colinicky
30-09-2013, 02:44 PM
Back when I had an Inspo I bought 2 of the 4.5kg lime from AP, still have them & if you "tap" the can like you do when packing the scrubber you create space that allows you to put more in to make enough for 2 fills & as said so much easier to transport & pass onto a boat.

smudger
30-09-2013, 02:59 PM
Making beer? Now there is an idea :)

Just a thought in comercial Kitchens they use vacume packers which seal the bag so you would have safe uncontaminated storage that also prevents cross contanination and the added plus can date it?

notdeadyet
30-09-2013, 03:24 PM
Making beer? Now there is an idea :)

Way ahead of you... perfect use for old lime kegs:

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n233/lizardland/2012-04-27171746.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n233/lizardland/2012-05-22200933.jpg

The lime residue gave it an interesting aftertaste :D

nigel hewitt
30-09-2013, 07:08 PM
I bought 4 5Ls a long time ago. Now I still buy it in 25Ls but decant into the smaller ones for a trip away.

dwhitlow
30-09-2013, 07:32 PM
I bought 4 5Ls a long time ago. Now I still buy it in 25Ls but decant into the smaller ones for a trip away.
+1

Defiance Charters
30-09-2013, 08:04 PM
For the record a 4l milk container well packed is just about perfect for an inspo. Something to remember when traveling.

As for selling re-packaged lime or O2 for that matter it comes down to liability. I have a very good friend who was investigated after a death in his business. He was sent to jail over the death. Not because he was in anyway responsible or that he did not observe all the H&S rules. The problem was that when he was investigated he did not have the complete paper trail to prove all the safety measures had been observed. The HSE actually admitted that they believed he was better than most big companies, but the big companies had the paper trail and often paid little respect of true H&S.

In relation to this I would not re-package a product in a life-support system as you are wide open if an incident happens. It is also why I do not supply O2 although I have a large personal bank. I also do not rent equipment although i have 40+ cylinders and 10+ regulators.

Sad but true. H&S is mostly common sense but the paperwork and bureaucracy is the killer.

Janos
30-09-2013, 08:34 PM
If it was me, I'd just buy a few packs of 5kg jerry cans and flog them. You're opening a can of worms for yourself selling by weight. First time someone has a CO2 problem they are going to ask where the lime came from and how long ago the pack was opened, etc. Give them a keg sealed by the manufacturer, saves a lot of headache for everyone. I think otherwise you're making a rod for your own back. Chances are it's going to be someone pushing a scrubber or flooding the loop or something rather than the lime itself but it doesn't stop the pointy finger coming your way. Is it worth it for something with so little profit?

What he said.

For me the history of the lime is important. I would buy a sealed tub if I was confident it had been stored correctly (ie hadn't been sitting in the sun for years) but not a half-used tub.

I think NYD's idea of 4.5kg tubs, sealed, is a good idea.

Janos
PS - I decant too.

frogfone
01-10-2013, 06:17 AM
If anyone is interested we sell 6L airtight containers on ebay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/290977476553?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649). They are pretty indestructible, have an o ring on the lid and would be ideal for transporting smaller quantities of sofnalime.

I'm happy to post at cost to TDF members.


Sharon

flyingfisheye
01-10-2013, 06:37 AM
I bought 4 5Ls a long time ago. Now I still buy it in 25Ls but decant into the smaller ones for a trip away.


That's what i do too, unless the trip is longer then take the 20kg tub, Dive lime is 60 for 20kg so just take that, went on a trip once and a guy ran out he had to beg for some off the others, "the Sorb in the house is worthless when your at sea"

JPTaylor
01-10-2013, 07:14 AM
That's what i do too, unless the trip is longer then take the 20kg tub, Dive lime is 60 for 20kg so just take that, went on a trip once and a guy ran out he had to beg for some off the others, "the Sorb in the house is worthless when your at sea"

In theory I should get 8 Inspo fills out of a 20kg tub, in practice only get 7 complete fills. Once weighted out 2.5kg of lime & was surprised where it leveled off in the scrubber can! Definitely overfill scrubber.....

Usually add a few kilos to a fresh 20kg tub if I need to get 8 fills out of it. Shared a 20kg tub with a buddy to save space in car, we needed 5 fills each in addition to fill in unit, so topped off 20kg tub with a few kilos & took two of the 4.5L tubs (refilled).

I bought 2 x 4.5L from AP for this purpose when I first started CCR diving; allegedly if you tap the lime to make it settle & get lime to fill around handle you can get 2 fills out of it. Never worked for me!

PeterL
01-10-2013, 07:27 AM
Divelime are just about to get their 5L packs back in stock if that's any help.......................

Ruffy
01-10-2013, 07:35 AM
If only there was a unit that used pre packed cartridges...........one out one in no filling or buggering about required:P:

nigel hewitt
01-10-2013, 07:44 AM
If only there was a unit that used pre packed cartridges...........one out one in no filling or buggering about required:P:
But, from what I have seen, they are far more bulky measured in diving hours.
Anyway filling is hardly a chore, cleaning the thing properly is far more onerous.

Ruffy
01-10-2013, 07:54 AM
But, from what I have seen, they are far more bulky measured in diving hours.
Anyway filling is hardly a chore, cleaning the thing properly is far more onerous.

Less bulky if anything.!..........however, I choose to fill my own due to cost most of the time..

but there is no denying the fact that the cartridges are bloody handy..can swop one over in about a minute:nod: